John Jantsch (00:01.184)

What if the very thing most adults dismiss as frivolous is actually the key to better ideas, deeper connection and more resilient work? Hello and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Piera Ghilardi. You know, I'm going to do that over again because I practiced that and I got it wrong. So yeah, Ghilardi, like gelato or something.

Piera Gelardi (00:23.822)

It's like hair gel, it's gel already. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, like gelato, exactly.

John Jantsch (00:31.636)

Yeah. Okay. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantz and my guest today is Piera Jalardi. She's an entrepreneur, speaker and co-founder of Refinery29, whose new book, The Playful Way, argues that play is not a distraction from meaningful work and life, but a practical mindset that can help us navigate creativity, change, relationships, and even adversity.

with more curiosity and possibilities. So, Piero, welcome to the show.

Piera Gelardi (01:03.886)

Thanks for having me. Let's play.

John Jantsch (01:05.546)

So I'm sure one of the first questions that you get asked all the time is, because so many of us, especially people of my generation, it's like, you didn't get to play it till you got your homework done. And so how, or when for you, I should actually ask it that way. Cause you argue that it's not something that we earn, that it's actually something that enhances how we work. When did that become true for you?

Piera Gelardi (01:30.776)

So I was fortunate to grow up in a really playful family and to have parents who were playful while they navigated growing businesses, having families, dealing with illness and loss. And so I got to see how playfulness could, and the curiosity and creativity that comes with playfulness could actually weave into every aspect of our life. So playfulness was something that was sort of baked into me. But then of course, like most adults, I rubbed up against

know, teachers that wanted me to do things a certain, you know, straight line way, wanted me to, to, you know, sit still and go from point A to point B. I went into workplaces that also expected a certain degree of seriousness and, you know, seriousness in terms of rigidity. And so I did definitely rubbed up against places that, you know, told me that play and playfulness was something frivolous with something that we do, you know, after our homework is done, after our hard work is done.

But what I found in my life and in my work was that integrating play created the best results. It created the most innovative ideas, the best relationships, and the most resilience for me to work through the problems that came up.

John Jantsch (02:44.028)

Is, I believe you a hundred percent and totally agree with it. Is there any research that you've done or that you've studied that kind of backs this up scientifically as well?

Piera Gelardi (02:54.466)

Yeah, there's a lot of research about the power of play. also there's research about play deprivation, which is something that I experienced in a period of work where I was trying to present in a serious way. So I packed up my playfulness and tried to kind of show up in a way that was zipped up in my serious suit, basically. And

Play deprivation leads to us being less resilient, having less of a solutions minded attitude, having less of a big perspective on what there is in life. And so we end up not having that intrinsic motivation that helps us to drive us forward, that helps us to feel, to find joy and excitement in our day to day, to find connection with each other. There's also a lot of science also around like the neuroscience of.

sort of that playful experimental mindset and how when we try something new, you know, these neural pathways are reshaping our brain. So when we're in that play state, we're in a much more open-minded experimental framework where we can actually learn and grow versus getting really stuck and being set back by failure, which is when we're in that perfectionistic, serious mindset, we're trying to control the outcome. We're trying to, you know,

get it exactly right, we tend to be less open-minded, we tend to not be able to deal with the change, the uncertainty, the setbacks in the same sort of pliable, resilient way that we can when we're in that playful mindset.

John Jantsch (04:32.893)

So, I think a lot of business owners, we've come a long way, I think a lot of business owners get the idea of doing creative exercises, kind of opens up dialogue and different things. But when you use the word play, do you sometimes get pushback because people have a bias about, that's goofing around, that's not serious, that's not who we are? mean, so does the word play itself actually cause some issues for you?

Piera Gelardi (04:57.676)

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of anti-play sentiment because we sort of associate play with one mode of play, but there's a lot of ways to be playful. So we sort of think of, and in the book I have these eight archetypes of play. So I think the one that people most associate with play is the joyful gesture, right? That's like the class clown. That's the one that, you know, making things light, that's bringing humor.

John Jantsch (05:00.661)

Yeah.

Piera Gelardi (05:22.594)

And that person actually can be so powerful in diffusing tension and helping to relieve stress and helping us to laugh so that we can actually get to a solution faster. But they're definitely the one that people feel is, I think it's the most controversial in the workplace. And though they really are powerful and there's also a lot of research about the power of humor in problem solving, in stress relief.

in relationship building. But there's so but there's that's only one way of being playful, right? That being humorous, being light, there's, you know, curiosity is a huge element of play. So there's the curious question that someone that asks a lot of questions that's intellectually going down these rabbit holes, and they're really powerful to have in the workplace, because they help you to think differently by introducing, you know, introducing questions and new ways of thinking.

There is the visionary dreamer. That's the person that is, you know, we might think of them as having their head in the clouds, right? They're often the negative side as they're seen as the dreamer, the unrealistic one, but they're also the one that's looking beyond what is immediately in front of us. They're not trying to just replicate the same thing over and over again. They're really opening up possibility in new ways. So there are lot of different ways to be playful. And so I think

One thing that I'm trying to do is educate people about these different modes of play so that we can understand how to value them and how to bring them into the workplace in different ways.

John Jantsch (06:57.184)

So I imagine a lot of people, one of the use cases a lot of people probably can relate to is the idea of team building. You there's nothing sort of, you let your guard down, you're vulnerable, you do something that's not you necessarily, you don't think it's you and team building. But talk to me a little bit about innovation because I'm guessing that that's a place where this really shines as well because, know, innovation takes meaning.

You can't fail. can't make a mistake. And you know, I think that that's probably inherent in some play, isn't it?

Piera Gelardi (07:32.172)

Yeah. So I think of it sort of, there's the pressured way and there's the playful way. And the pressured way is when we're trying to control the outcome. We are rigid. We might feel like tight in our body. and that is often like when we're really zipped up tight in our serious suit and we're very, very afraid of failure. the playful way is when we have that curiosity to us, when we're looking at a problem from multiple different angles.

John Jantsch (07:36.746)

Mm-hmm.

Piera Gelardi (08:01.218)

we're floating unexpected ideas. And it allows us to really find these innovative ways to move forward. And so, yeah, play is the, mean, the most effective brands and companies integrate some sort of play into what they do. The companies that are the most innovative know that that's how you create experiences that people feel. That's how you go outside of the cookie cutter idea.

Often when we go in that pressured way, we're just replicating past, you know, past success or replic or copying other people's formats. We're not creating something new. And when you think about a kid, right, like they're looking at a cardboard box and they're seeing that it can be a pirate ship. can be, you know, it can be a spaceship. It's a closet. It's all these different things. And that's divergent thinking. And of course that's, you know, we might not think that's a very practical example in the workplace, but

If you're looking at a problem, you want someone that can think about all the different ways you could go about it. And so what play does is it opens up our minds to that divergent thinking. And that's where the big solutions, the big unlocks come from.

John Jantsch (09:12.118)

So I imagine, I'm just guessing, that you have a series of exercises that you could bring to people and say, OK, for the next 10 minutes, we're going to do X, Y, and Z. Can you showcase a couple of things that you find to be really effective at getting people to do whatever behavior it is the company's trying to support?

Piera Gelardi (09:32.662)

Yeah. So a couple of really simple ones, you know, that I, I did a lot at Refinery29 were, one is actually a physical shake break. which, you know, can be controversial in the workplace because people feel really self-conscious and, know, it can be hard to get people to move, but honestly, I found it to be so effective because so often you're going into a meeting, right? And you're holding onto whatever frustrating conversation you had, or you're still thinking about.

you know, how you're going to deal with the thing on your to-do list. Also, there can be a power dynamic, like often when people were coming into my office, have a meeting with me, you know, I'm the boss, they're feeling, you know, nervous about like, are they going to say the right thing? And so as the leader, I think it's really important to be the one that's making a fool of yourself to a certain extent, you know, doesn't have to be huge, but you, yeah, you need to be vulnerable. You need to be the one that shows that it's okay to play.

John Jantsch (10:25.398)

Lead by example.

Piera Gelardi (10:33.541)

because that's the only way to get people to do it. I would, when people would come into my office, I would say, okay, we're gonna do a 30 second shake break. I would do this improv exercise called crazy eights where you shake, you count down from eight, like shaking your one arm, the other arm, one arm, one leg, the other leg. And what would happen is, know, it was like I'm...

I'm being silly, so then everyone else is following suit. And at the end, no one's cool. No one is serious. And we all kind of have let our guard down. It evens the playing field. It opens us up. It allows us to create a certain space where ideas can flow a little bit more easily. I'm also a big fan of just simple curiosity questions. So these can be, you know, these can be.

really silly and just unexpected or they can you know, they can be on topic but introducing questions that force people to You know think in a new way I think is a really simple and sort of low stakes way to bring play in Another one is imagination. So a question I loved to float to my team was what would what would need to be true for this to happen?

Because so often we're sort of stuck on a problem. We're stuck on the old ways of doing things. We're stuck on the obstacles. So sometimes, yeah, why it won't work. So sometimes asking a question like that, like what would need to be true in order for us to do this is a great way to open up that possibility, that possibility thinking.

John Jantsch (11:58.186)

Yeah, right. Why it won't work.

John Jantsch (12:17.12)

Talk to me a little bit about Refinery29. I know the book is kind of drawn from some of your experiences there, but talk a little bit about what Refinery29 does.

Piera Gelardi (12:28.194)

Yeah, so Refinery29 is a global media company focused on 360 degrees of a woman's life. So everything from health and wellness to beauty, fashion. we started as a, we basically essentially started as a blog and we grew into a company that was doing experience, these huge experiential events across the US and internationally doing video film.

John Jantsch (12:39.99)

Mmm.

Piera Gelardi (12:56.942)

all kinds of different media outlets. So yeah, it started, you know, it started, I started it when I was 24 and it was this small niche thing and it grew into a company that had a hundred million dollars in revenue and 500 employees globally.

John Jantsch (13:00.67)

And so.

John Jantsch (13:15.274)

So did some of the work that shows up in the book, did it come from those experiences and from how you kept those playful and energetic?

Piera Gelardi (13:25.612)

Yeah, so the book is full of stories from a lot of different moments in my life. But some of the ones are from my time at Refinery29, the problems that we solved and the innovation that we unlocked through bringing play into the workplace.

John Jantsch (13:44.032)

So I'm sure there's a fine line. mean, people may listen to this, read the book and go, you're right, we need to bring more play in. How do you make it part of the culture and not a gimmick? We've all seen that. The CEO goes off to a conference and listens to a workshop and the next thing you know, for five minutes we're doing this now. So how do you bring it in as something?

that has value, that's not forced, that's not gimmicky, not performative.

Piera Gelardi (14:14.99)

Yeah, that's so critical. think so often companies when they want to integrate play, they sort of do that forced fun. The moment that employees feel is forced fun, right? And it's a one-off thing. In the book, I really talk about how play is something, you we think of play as sort of this time out or this thing that we do as a reward for hard work, but play is the most effective when it is integrated into the day-to-day in small moments. So I think...

One is understanding the different modes of play and starting to understand within your team what the different archetypes of play that people are so that you can really leverage those and you can understand, you know, what is going to light those, light those people up. you know, a curious questor who's, who's following those intellectual threads and curiosity is going to be, you know, going to light up from something really different from a mover and shaker that's more someone who finds

who finds play in their physical body through movement. So there's very different modes of play. So I think the first thing is understanding within the team, what are the different play strengths that people have? What are the powers of play that you have that you're working with? The next is to, I do this thing called plork, which is how do we fuse play and work in small moments? So that can be really small. can be, you know,

John Jantsch (15:15.595)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:35.722)

Mm.

Piera Gelardi (15:41.55)

introducing a curiosity question at the beginning of a meeting. can be renaming meeting invites with something that's a little bit more whimsical. So it doesn't feel like an anxiety attack when you see your calendar. It's these little moments that you commit to and you brainstorm as a team. So you think about, okay, once you understand these powers of play that the team has, how can you integrate those day to day in small ways?

John Jantsch (15:52.352)

Right.

Thank

Piera Gelardi (16:11.554)

what are those play plus work moments that become part of the culture so that you are really integrating it and finding those moments of connection, creativity, curiosity in the day to day versus just putting a play bandaid on like at that one offset.

John Jantsch (16:29.352)

Right. Yeah. It's interesting. I hadn't really thought of people having play personalities, but it sounds like that's a bit what you're describing. So we've talked mostly about internal team and culture. How could people use this in a marketing sense? So in other words, be more playful in their public, you know, what they're putting out there to be perceived as, you know, a fun and playful company.

Piera Gelardi (16:34.861)

Yeah.

Piera Gelardi (16:56.002)

Yeah, I think in terms of bringing it into a marketing context, it's really about how can we do something different? How can we bring an experimental mindset to how we market? I tend to find that when we think of things as an experiment, and again, there's this neuroscience around this, but when we think of something as an experiment, we open up a lot more possibility and we stop.

John Jantsch (17:09.206)

Mm-hmm.

Piera Gelardi (17:24.13)

having it stops feeling so high stakes that we can't fail that we can't try new things. So I think one thing is, you know, thinking about what are the experiments that we want to run here? What's something that would be interesting to try? You know, can we try it in a can we try it in a small way? And then build off of that. That was something we did a lot of refinery. We were constantly experimenting. So we'd say

You know, for example, we did this huge experiential event called 29 rooms that went to seven cities, hundreds of thousands of people came through. but it started from just one event where we said, you know, we're noticing this behavior of how people are using Instagram. And so why don't we do, why don't we do something in our photo studio at the office where we invite photographers to come in, we give them all kinds of props, access to models and access to clothes and let them, you know,

express their creativity and tag us. And so that was the experiment, was just doing that. So it was a very low stakes, low cost experiment. And we saw this huge Instagram sharing that came from this one office event. And so then we said, okay, do we do that again and make it a little bit bigger? So then we did it in partnership with.

museum in New York, we brought in a fashion brand to provide the looks and we tried it again and we again saw this huge like exponential return from it. And then, you know, then it was like the next piece, okay, like let's pop up an event. It was a smaller scale event. Again, saw huge success. And so that was when we decided to take the gamble and put on this huge, this huge event where we brought in brands, celebrities, you know, it was like, and that that became something that was

huge, we were hugely known for and that became really copied. was on every, you know, every brand was referencing it and trying to replicate the 29 rooms, you know, effect. So, but it came from that experimental mindset of saying, okay, what if we tried this and what's the smallest, what's the smallest way we can try it within our resources to see if this has legs.

John Jantsch (19:18.901)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (19:31.638)

All right, now that you've written the book and it's, upon when people are listening to this, it's going to be out there for public consumption. Is there anything that you hope, especially adults, relearn about themselves by considering this topic?

Piera Gelardi (19:50.306)

Yeah, I think in adulthood, through the course of having the strict teacher that tells you to sit still, having the boss that shuts down your humorous aside, there's through feeling the weight of responsibility and thinking that play is antithetical to being the responsible adult. There's all these moments where we start to shut down our playfulness. And as a result, we lose that curiosity.

we lose that resilience and we lose the flexibility that play brings into our lives. And that makes us lose touch with ourselves really. It makes us like lose touch with our true essence. when we think about our relationships too, right? Like what are the things that you remember the most about your friends, your family? It's often these inside jokes, these silly moments, these playful pieces.

And so when we start to become that very serious adult, we start to shut down what really makes us authentic, what makes us connect authentically and what makes us come alive. So, you know, in adulthood, starting to reconnect with that playful spirit, you know, even just in small ways, I tell people, go back to the lost and found. Like think about your childhood and what made you lose track of the hours, what completely immersed you.

and see if there's something in there that you want to re-explore. So, you know, maybe it was dancing when you were a kid and you want to like think about going to a dance class again, or maybe it was beach combing and you were just like, loved looking at, you know, looking for sea glass on the beach. You know, is there, do you want to go for a walk in your neighborhood and see if you can, you know, turn it into a wonder wander and find, you know, these moments of delight. So re-engaging, like starting in small ways, but just.

being open to the fact that playfulness is going to unlock a lot of richness and joy and aliveness in your life. So it's really worthwhile to pursue it. Play is not the opposite of seriousness. It's what makes seriousness bearable. It's what makes you find joy in the day to day and the mundane.

John Jantsch (22:09.178)

Well, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the podcast. Where would you invite people to find out more about your work? Find out where they can pick up a copy of the book.

Piera Gelardi (22:19.522)

Yeah, so they can pick up the book, The Playful Way. It's at all major booksellers starting April 7th. And you can find me on Instagram and Stub Stack at Pierrealuisa and my website, pieragillardi.com.

John Jantsch (22:33.878)

Awesome. Well, again, Pierre, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we're running into you one of these days out there on the road.

Piera Gelardi (22:38.646)

Yeah, thanks so much. Thanks for playing.

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John Jantsch (00:02.104)

What if the real barrier to building a thriving practice is not just talent or expertise, but the outdated rules we've accepted about how business development is supposed to work. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Deborah Farone. She's a founder of Farone Advisors and a longtime leader in legal business development and marketing. She previously held senior business development roles at major law firms and her new book.

Deborah Farone (00:13.368)

Thank you.

Deborah Farone (00:30.586)

you

John Jantsch (00:30.84)

breaking ground how successful women lawyers build thriving practices. That's what we're going to talk about today. Welcome, Debra.

Deborah Farone (00:36.858)

Thank you for having me, John.

John Jantsch (00:40.398)

So for listeners, we're not going to talk about legal stuff. We're not going to necessarily. I think a lot of the things that I was going to share today will apply to anybody, particularly in professional services, because really the business development is very, very similar. So you've spent many years, I suspect, helping firms think about business development. This book focuses specifically on women. Is there a gap that you saw that you think made this book necessary?

Deborah Farone (00:44.852)

Thank

Deborah Farone (01:08.794)

There was, you know, I think that most lawyers and most professionals develop business in very similar ways, but I felt that there were some women out there who either didn't have the role models because there are fewer women at the top of the organizations and law firms, or they didn't know how to have the skills to develop business. So that's why I really wanted to help them. But in doing the book, I realized that so much of what I was learning was applicable.

John Jantsch (01:15.746)

Right.

Deborah Farone (01:37.7)

to anyone who wanted to develop business. It's just my sample set happened to be women.

John Jantsch (01:43.214)

Yeah. So I think many people suffer from this, regardless of the industry, but certainly in professional services, I think it is more so. that people, don't even like the term sales, right? I mean, it feels salesy. It's all the bad things they associate with what they see it. But you certainly talk about, and I know that this is a thread running through the book, that it doesn't have to feel salesy. Why do you think so many...

Business professionals, sales professionals really resist this.

Deborah Farone (02:15.674)

think most of them went to school to learn a profession, whether it was to learn to be an accountant or a consultant. No one ever said you were going to have to go into sales. So it sounds like all of a sudden they have to have this new way of thinking. I really don't think that's the case. In fact, most of the successful people that I've worked with, whether they're consultants or lawyers, don't find themselves asking for the business. They never really say, can I have that business from you? They very often

John Jantsch (02:19.608)

Yeah, you're right.

Deborah Farone (02:44.492)

let people know what they've done. They offer to help. They use words like, I support you? But they're not in sales mode. I think they really do want to help these potential clients. And so that comes through. And I believe you need to be more authentic than you do a salesperson when you're trying to build a practice.

John Jantsch (03:08.238)

Well, think there's a lot of things that certainly I've learned in selling professional services. That idea of give value, provide value, provide support, and eventually that business will come around. But when you tell that person that is just getting started out there and they're like, that's great. I'm all for the long game and for investing, but I need to eat. So how do you kind of thread that?

Deborah Farone (03:36.206)

think it's important to have relationships and I really try to get young professionals to concentrate on that. And even if they don't have a big budget in a firm, get your senior people to come and train the younger ones. Give them the war stories of how you've won clients or how you've met people that have developed business. think that that's very important. And I think even for people that are still in school to start thinking about your network and your network isn't just

John Jantsch (03:50.21)

Yeah.

Deborah Farone (04:05.486)

the people that you go to class with. It's who you met at your summer jobs, right? It's the people in your first job who work in ancillary positions. They might not be a consultant if you're a consultant or an accountant if you're an accountant, but they're the people that you've met. And those folks become part of your network. And I think we're seeing with sales what we often see with job hunting that those contacts that end up hiring us are not necessarily that

first degree circle of people we know, but very often it's the people that they know. So it's important to have a large diverse network of contacts out there.

John Jantsch (04:46.424)

Yeah, I tell, I wrote a book on referrals actually. And I always tell people, you know, not everybody's your prospect, but everybody knows your prospect. You know, at least one of them, right? Yeah. So you did a lot of conversations, had a lot of interviews, focused on a lot of successful women rainmakers. Did you see that there are patterns that show up that are maybe different in how men and women build trust, visibility, and opportunity?

Deborah Farone (04:49.338)

Thanks.

Deborah Farone (04:55.29)

It's true.

John Jantsch (05:16.684)

A follow-up question you can answer, is one better at it? Are those different approaches serve one? So let's go back to the first question, since I butchered that. What patterns did you see showing up in particularly how women build trust, visibility, and opportunity?

Deborah Farone (05:24.346)

You

Deborah Farone (05:28.058)

Thank you.

Well, I wasn't so much studying men versus women as I was just looking at this group of women, but I do find that they like relationship building, that that's something that comes naturally to them. And what I did find that is maybe true with men as well is that you need to be authentic in your marketing approach and how you develop business, that there is not a one size fits all. Not everyone fits into one of four categories.

John Jantsch (05:36.238)

Right, right.

Deborah Farone (06:02.52)

I think we all find our own way of doing it based on our personality, what works for us. And so people like Susan, I and D Baker McKenzie, who I spoke to for the book, loves exercise. She loves being outdoors. And so she invites her clients and her colleagues and contacts whenever they're in town to go with her on a hike. That's not going to work for everyone. But she doesn't like this idea of having the formal cocktail party and inviting people she knows. So.

John Jantsch (06:17.998)

Mm-hmm.

Deborah Farone (06:31.393)

I think it's a matter of finding what works for you because that's going to be what you want to repeat. And also that's what your clients are going to see that you enjoy. And clients can tell if you're taking them golfing, but you really don't like golf.

John Jantsch (06:45.506)

Yeah. So I think that you just hit on really the secret is finding what works for you and being yourself rather than looking at like, this is how everybody in our industry does it, or this is how everybody in our firm does it. You really will be more successful doing something that works for you, which is probably going to be something that you also enjoy. Would that be, yeah.

Deborah Farone (07:06.903)

Yes, and I try with the people that I know and I'm sure you do too. You know, want to really get to know them and figure out what are their proclivities? You what are they like? I worked with someone who was a classical musician and she loves the opera. And so she lives in Milan and what she does is she takes her clients and their spouses and families to see a short opera and then for a wonderful dinner.

because she enjoys it and they can tell they know that when she's taking them that they're having a good time and so is she. And so I think that that's really important is figuring out what it is that you enjoy. What's the best way for you to develop business and it might not be the same way as the person next door.

John Jantsch (07:35.927)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (07:53.358)

So what do you say to that client maybe that you're working with that, you know, I think a lot of people think in terms of to be successful business development, you have to be that outgoing, charismatic, you know, networking, you know, kind of person. What do you tell that person who's like, that's just not me? You know, I don't feel comfortable doing that. You know, how am I going to succeed?

Deborah Farone (08:09.688)

Yeah.

Deborah Farone (08:13.923)

Right, think, know, well, first of all, I tell people don't take giant leaps, take baby steps. And that's the best thing to do so that if you're not used to talking about yourself and your practice, do it with a family member, you know, then do it with a colleague, then do it with an associate at your firm, and then eventually you can do it with the client. So I think, you know, Jeff Klein, who's a well-known lawyer in New York said marketing is muscle. And I think it's true, you get better and better at it.

John Jantsch (08:19.362)

Nice.

John Jantsch (08:25.368)

me.

John Jantsch (08:40.952)

Yes.

Deborah Farone (08:42.393)

But I also don't think that you need to be out having lunch every day with people if that's not your thing. You know, I love coffee. I mean, I love any kind of coffee, right? So I love meeting people for coffee. It's perfect. I don't have to think about what I'm eating. I don't have to think about any variables. I'm happy at a Starbucks or a fancy hotel for coffee. And that's what I love. You know, so I do coffee meetings.

John Jantsch (08:53.016)

Thank

Deborah Farone (09:09.677)

But other people find their ways. And I think you have to do what feels authentic to you.

John Jantsch (09:16.91)

So what, and maybe you don't keep track of this kind of thing, circling back a little bit to the gender aspect of your work, what's the percentage of women in leadership in the legal industry, you think?

Deborah Farone (09:31.129)

It's very low. mean, we have less than I think 30 % or maybe around 30 % that are actually partners. And if you look at the American Lawyer 100, the top firms, fewer than 25 % are being led by women. And so you have a real issue with diversity on all levels, and even fewer are women or people of color. And so it's a real issue when you talk about looking for role models.

John Jantsch (09:32.547)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:00.588)

Yeah.

Deborah Farone (10:00.91)

I think professionals, particularly lawyers, like to look at role models because they're interested in precedent. They want to know what has the other person done that's been successful. And if they don't see people who look like them in those roles, it's a lot harder to figure out how they're going to get there.

John Jantsch (10:09.614)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:18.734)

Do you feel like that system, if you will, still quietly works against women then? When it comes to business development, mean, particularly.

Deborah Farone (10:26.033)

I do. Yeah, I think women and minorities have a tougher time because there are not those role models. I think there are other issues at play like unconscious bias. But, you know, my focus really is on business development. And I feel that, you know, if we can teach people how to develop business, whether they're in the professions or even if they're in something like advertising.

If you have the ability to sell yourself and to develop business, it gives you so much more ability to write your own script and to do what you want because you're going to have more advantages as far as rising within an organization if you're a business developer that we've seen. And you can also kind of develop the clients that you want to develop and develop the practice that appeals to you. And that's great. That gives you a sense of independence that you wouldn't have otherwise.

John Jantsch (11:08.491)

Yes, yes.

Deborah Farone (11:21.483)

So that's really what I want to encourage people to do.

John Jantsch (11:24.846)

You can probably take that on the road to another firm as well as within your own firm.

Deborah Farone (11:27.449)

You can. Absolutely. It allows you freedom. It's a type of currency, isn't it? You know, that you have that capability.

John Jantsch (11:34.892)

Yeah. Yeah.

So we've been talking about applying this to law, but for consultants, agency owners, other experts, what do you think your book could teach them about building practice around relationships rather than self-promotion?

Deborah Farone (11:53.405)

well, I think the authenticity issue is very big. Also trust, I cover how you build trust. And it seems to be three elements. It's expertise, it's the authenticity piece, and it's empathy. And I go into a lot of detail about that because I think being yourself amongst your clients is not something we're trained to do necessarily. But I try to show people examples of folks who have done that.

and why they've been successful. And clients want to work with people who are believable, who come across as humans. I told you when we got on the call that I might have a coughing attack. I don't pretend to be perfect. And I think people like people more when they are themselves and they admit that they're fallible. And so there are lots of different things for other professionals, I think, to learn from these lessons.

And the other really is to develop a niche. think developing a niche is so vital regardless of what you're doing in the world because figuring out what you really enjoy and then figuring out if you think of it as a Venn diagram, what makes economic sense or sense for the firm that you're with. Finding where those overlap is just a vital part of being able to market yourself.

John Jantsch (12:54.679)

Hmm.

John Jantsch (13:15.662)

And then going very good and deep and becoming an expert at that thing, right?

Deborah Farone (13:20.632)

Right, absolutely. But I think we all have a tendency to jump into the tactics before we do the strategy. And I really would recommend that people think about the strategy and how they want to be known and what they want to do before they take an immediate jump into giving lots of speaking engagements or marketing themselves.

John Jantsch (13:27.779)

Yes.

John Jantsch (13:40.15)

Yeah. So most professional service firms expect partners to grow the practice. So where do you see the firms themselves getting it wrong in terms of not really equipping those, you know, just saying, go out there and do it.

Deborah Farone (13:56.131)

Yeah, I think they need to train people. I think training has to start when someone is very young in business. I think you can train an older person. You can teach them new tricks. But what happens is, and we see this in so many professions, if you're not training them when they're associates or when they just start, not only are they losing whatever seven or eight years of building good habits about business development and marketing and relationship building,

But they're losing those contacts that they could have made. So they've not been trained, they don't have the contacts. All of sudden you make them partner and you say, okay, it's time, go develop business. And it's much harder at that point.

John Jantsch (14:37.998)

All right.

Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. So is there anything in the interviews that you did, particularly with the women, that kind of challenged some of your own assumptions about business development, even about leadership?

Deborah Farone (14:57.728)

think finding that there were cultural differences, there were more cultural differences than I thought there would be around the world. So I spoke with women in Botswana. I spoke with women in Milan and Paris and Asia. And there are differences that I think I just see generally as a difference with culture, whether it's men or women. But in parts of Asia, you would never be direct and say, I want to do

Business with you I want to work with you unless if you really do know someone very well and the same is true with even portions of Italy and Europe. You know London is more like America as far as you can be a little bit more direct. But Latin America is also different and that they want to take time and get to know you and so I think the cultural differences were were really interesting I was aware that there might be some but.

John Jantsch (15:49.006)

Mm-hmm.

Deborah Farone (15:55.657)

the ones that I heard about just reinforced how important it is, especially if you're going to another country, that there are to be cultural differences. And even if you're going to another firm, another company that you're trying to sell, you have to just be very empathetic and really understand the culture of that company. So that was reinforced.

John Jantsch (16:19.864)

So if, and I'm sure you've been brought in from time to time to work with somebody who's really good at what they do, sort of hesitant to put themselves out there. Do you always, I mean, is there a first step that you say, well, just do this, it won't kill you, this'll get you started?

Deborah Farone (16:35.352)

I think so much of it is getting to know someone because everyone's going to have their quirks. And so while I do work for large companies and large firms, I will take on about eight coaching clients a year. And I really need to start with getting to know what they do, what they love, what they hate about work, all of those things. And then we can figure out where they want to go. But I really do believe that that's strategic.

John Jantsch (16:39.726)

Yeah.

Deborah Farone (17:04.344)

part has to come before they start selling themselves. And very often the selling themselves part starts with how they sell themselves internally at their company. Are they making the right contacts? And are they helping other people? And are they creating a good reputation for themselves? Those things matter so much and they're so easy to overlook.

John Jantsch (17:15.278)

That's a point,

John Jantsch (17:30.722)

Yeah, that's interesting point. I'm sure that when people, especially young associates inside of professional service firm, especially a larger firm, part of the job is start your networking here, right? mean, go meet these partners or go ask somebody how they got to where they got and find a mentor maybe even. that's all part of that's business development, frankly, isn't it?

Deborah Farone (17:54.648)

It is and you know I spoke I guess maybe two or three weeks ago at Columbia Law School and I said to the law students it's really important that you know everyone in this room because one of you is going to be the next Sam Altman or one of you might be the head of an architecture firm or a law firm you just don't know and so it really needs to start at that level it needs to kind of

John Jantsch (18:00.92)

Thanks.

John Jantsch (18:07.276)

Yeah.

Deborah Farone (18:21.451)

reach people who are still trying to figure out what they want to do. Develop a network, think about who is in your network, and make sure that you're empathetic to what they're going through.

John Jantsch (18:28.781)

Yes.

John Jantsch (18:33.294)

It's funny, when I started my business some 30 years ago, all my first clients were people I went to high school and college with. So, all right, you wrote Breaking Ground. What do you hope firms and individuals, professionals will do differently as a result of reading?

Deborah Farone (18:40.573)

I'm not surprised. That's great.

Deborah Farone (18:51.029)

I think one, start training people early. Don't wait until they become a partner at their firm. And also realize that everyone develops business in a different way and can develop business in a different way. So have room for people to do it authentically. Give them a budget, give them some guardrails of what they can and can't do if you need to, but allow them to find a way to develop business that's right for them.

So I think those are two things that I would start with.

John Jantsch (19:24.014)

Well, Deborah, I appreciate you saying that by the DuckTait marketing podcast. Is there somewhere you'd invite people to find out more about breaking ground and certainly to connect with you?

Deborah Farone (19:25.833)

It's particularly.

Deborah Farone (19:32.865)

Absolutely. Well, breaking ground, they can easily order through Amazon or through my website. There's some links for discount codes and things like that. And my website is deborahferrone.com. And most of the time I live on LinkedIn. I guess if you can say, where do you live as far as social media, I'm on LinkedIn at Deborah Breitman-Ferrone.

John Jantsch (19:50.19)

Great.

John Jantsch (19:55.694)

Again, I appreciate you stop by and maybe we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Deborah Farone (20:01.053)

John, thank you so much. It was fun speaking with you.

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John Jantsch (00:01.651)

So what if the real opportunity with AI is not replacing human creativity but expanding it by turning entrepreneurs into better editors, directors, and decision makers? Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Jon Benson. He's a copywriter, entrepreneur, and AI pioneer best known for creating the video sales letter, one of those terms that people just use like it's been around forever.

A format that shapes modern digital marketing. is long centered on ethical persuasion and authentic connection. And more recently, he developed BNSN, an AI platform trained on high converting campaigns for small businesses. So John, welcome to the show.

Jon Benson (00:29.9)

Yeah.

Jon Benson (00:47.212)

Hey, John. Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (00:49.585)

So let's, I assume you have to do this a little bit of your time when you go on shows like this, but the term VSL, you know, is kind of entered the, the marketing vernacular. Talk to me a little bit about, I've been doing this for 30 years. That was probably 12, 15 years ago, really, when that kind of burst on the scene as an innovation. You want to talk a little bit about what that's done to your trajectory, I suppose.

Jon Benson (00:55.202)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. yeah.

Jon Benson (01:02.04)

Mm-hmm.

Jon Benson (01:16.216)

Yeah, believe it or not, it's 20 years old this year. So 2006. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. It's, mean, it was, it, yeah, everything changed that the, day that happened, the 30 days later, everything changed from my offer that I did it for, you know, we went from like struggling onto my second book that I wrote in, in fitness and then went to a million dollars.

John Jantsch (01:18.537)

20 years, okay.

Jon Benson (01:39.886)

a week and a month rather in traffic cost, you people buying that kind of money and going up to even higher than that. So it was crazy. And then, and then all of people started calling me and asking me to write VSLs for them. And I'm not, I wasn't a copywriter. that's not, never been my claim to fame until after this happened. And then I had to get good at writing copy. So that's what happened.

John Jantsch (02:01.939)

That's funny. So you said you had written a book about gym ownership? Is that what you said?

Jon Benson (02:10.663)

I've written six books in fitness, so weight loss, fitness, bodybuilding, yeah, so that whole thing has been a passion.

John Jantsch (02:12.947)

Fitness, fitness, okay. Okay, so are you one of those people that that was your passion and you just had to learn how to do marketing? And so this whole idea of studying persuasion and conversion and innovation, is that something that was really just picked up because you're like, I better get good at that?

Jon Benson (02:24.748)

Yeah.

Jon Benson (02:34.478)

It was picked up specifically for copywriting, yes, but I studied persuasion in college. Actually, I was studying MLP in college. I was fascinated by how you can basically get people to listen to you and hear what you're actually trying to communicate and motivate them to make changes based on things that you believe at least are good for them. So you're not trying to manipulate them. You're just trying to motivate them. And I was always into like, how can I motivate and connect with people deeper? So I studied the MLP back then, way back then.

John Jantsch (02:39.731)

Mm.

Jon Benson (03:03.22)

and mail order course from, from Bandler. And that got me into Tony Robbins and that led me into even deeper persuasion issues. And, and just was always really fascinated by it. And that led to me being into the advertising world. And that would, that led eventually to writing a book with it. Yeah. I actually would have the book thing came about because I'd always been passionate about, bodybuilding and fitness and things like that growing up and athlete. I was an athlete most of my life. And then

ended up sedentary and got ended up obese in my late 20s and early 30s. I had 50 inch waist and had a heart attack at 38. So I was like, it was like a train wreck of health. And that got me back into it. So that's the Fit Over 40 book was written based on that, on turning that around. And then I interviewed a bunch of other people because I didn't think I was enough for a book. So I did 52 people that did the same.

John Jantsch (03:55.283)

So I'm curious, this is a question, unfortunately, I feel like I'm asking almost every guest these days, but how has AI changed that element of copywriting for good or bad?

Jon Benson (04:00.942)

It's

Jon Benson (04:08.494)

So my goal with AI and copywriting, I've been doing copywriting software since 2010. So this is going to date me a lot, but in AI, in early nascent AI in 2017 and working with early LLMs in 2019. So very, very, very early into this thing and trying to convince everybody, this was the thing that we wanted to do. And the reason why is because I was, I had these courses that I would teach people how to write VSOs and I knew how hard it was for me to learn all the copywriting in and outs and

and develop my own style, which I did. And I said, well, what, what if I could have software that would do it for them? And the average business owner doesn't have time to do that. They just want the copy that converts. So I've seen it from 15 years away going, I know this is going to happen eventually. And so we decided that the software is pronounced Benson. That's not my last name. It's just my last name without the vowels. And, and yeah, yeah, but it's, cool that you can spell it out. That's all right. and so we did Benson originally, it was going to be called,

John Jantsch (04:56.529)

okay. Not BNSM like I butchered it, okay?

Jon Benson (05:06.35)

It was going to, because it was the first AI to actually write a long form VSL. And I was working with, with Jasper at the time they were called Jarvis, but I was the first guy in the copywriter to train anything on an LLM. And they ended up with a 62nd VSL out of all the training. I think, yeah, I think we can do this in a different way. And we ended up being, you know, having a 7,000 word VSL come out of our AI and it sounded like a real VSL.

John Jantsch (05:14.729)

Sure, yeah.

Jon Benson (05:32.663)

It didn't sound like chat, GBT, it didn't sound like Claude, it sounded like a real VSL. And so that was our claim to fame. And since then we just, of course got, we were very early into the agentic phase. So we've just gotten better and better at that. And so my goal was to replace myself. That's what I wanted to do. I wanted to say, if I can, if I can use this to write a VSL, which I have, sells pages for my own stuff, which I have, then I know that it's going to be good enough to, for prime time. And that was the, that was the goal to do. yeah.

John Jantsch (06:02.549)

So talk to, obviously we've got more to explore in AI, but talk to me a little bit about the VSL itself. mean, it has become very mainstream. I mean, you hear people talk about it, whether they know what it is or not. They talk about it as part of their funnel, you know, today. So is it overdone? I mean, is it over?

Jon Benson (06:06.094)

Mm-hmm.

Jon Benson (06:10.316)

Mm. Yep.

yeah.

Jon Benson (06:21.806)

Yeah, every year I hear that I've heard that for 20 years. So it literally 20 years. So the first year I came out with it and said, Oh, it's already and then Ryan Dias, who's a good friend of mine made the mistake of saying when he came out and promoted his own little mini VSO course and he later gave me credit for which was really nice of him and everything. But he said, Oh, sales letters are dead. You'll never do another sales. And I'm like, dude, I've never said that, you know, I think everything works if you let it and VSO is just happened to keep on working and they just ask, ask Agora.

John Jantsch (06:24.157)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jon Benson (06:51.022)

They work. I mean, yeah, they work. They work really well and now people are using BSLs in feed So you've got the meta ads that are basically short BSLs that use the same psychology Just compressed into five two to five minutes. So we've been doing that for 15 years as well So yeah, and then they go to a longer BSL So they they still work just as sales pages work just as webinars can work everything can work It just depends on what you're wanting to sell and how you're and how you approach it But the words are the consistent thing

So if the words aren't there, if the words don't reflect an actual human underneath it, people sense it a mile away, which was our goal with Benson was to create humanized AI. How do we do this? How do we create AI that doesn't sound robotic? It doesn't sound like, you know, chat GPT writing an email, it's asking a rhetorical question. And the very first sentence, you know, this kind of really bad AI copy that we see all the time. How do we do this and actually sound like a real A-list copywriter? And that was, that's been our focus for three and a half years now.

John Jantsch (07:20.456)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:48.413)

You know, initially the large innovation was that it was not a talking head on video. It was the words. Is that a key component of it?

Jon Benson (07:56.174)

Mm-hmm.

Jon Benson (08:01.113)

You know, it depends on what you're trying to sell. We have seen split tests with video beating words only, and we've seen words only beat video. It really depends on what it is. And what works today, a year from now, will be something you want to reverse. So for a while there was like my friend Craig who writes for Golden Hippo, and he's done amazingly well building a billion dollar company from, he's an amazing writer. But he was one of the first guys working with Gundry to do a lot of video.

on the front end of a VSL, but talking to him behind the scenes, so to say, we know that it's still like a Google Doc and the words are everything. So he slaves over the words, man, getting the words just right. So all the video in the world is not gonna save you if your words suck. It just isn't gonna happen. So the words are still the most important.

John Jantsch (08:46.077)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So one of the knocks on AI, of course, is it's made it very easy for people to create really crappy content. you see it all the time now, right? It's like volumes of really bad content. So why can't people create better content? What's the mistake they're making? Is it simply just a matter of being lazy?

Jon Benson (08:54.831)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jon Benson (09:11.983)

No, it's the matter of the LLMs or the in our case, it's the agents not knowing you. And this is where it gets a little bit a little bit hairy for people, because there has to be an element of your personality that's OK to be known. as the same thing would be true if you went and hired me as a copywriter. Like I would ask you if you had an offer and you wanted to whatever your offer would be. I would start asking you lots of questions that you probably don't think is related to your offer.

John Jantsch (09:19.719)

Yeah, yeah,

Jon Benson (09:40.336)

Now I'm not talking about like when asking all these really intensive personal questions, but I want to know what your values are. I want to know where you stand. Who do you want to attract as customers? What are you against? What are you not just what the, what the product does? Cause the product or the offer, whatever it does, I that's, that's not that difficult. Um, what's difficult is to make that story resonate with people that will automatically hear and go, Oh, that sounds like something that I can automatically relate to. And that's what a really good copy. does. We don't try to sell people that are

not interested or just completely need to go from a level one to a level five awareness, that's really not what we wanna do. We wanna target people that are already there, because you got plenty of people like that, but if you write, if you go into a chat or clod or whatever and you say, write me an email or write me an ad or rep me a VSO, and they don't know who you are, they don't have a good feel of your words, feel of your personality, it's gonna write stuff that's schlocky, because it's trained on the internet. So if you just think about this for a moment, and everyone listening to me will get this,

John Jantsch (10:35.294)

Yeah, yeah.

Jon Benson (10:39.043)

It's like, can you imagine training anyone to do anything by telling them, go read the internet and get back to me tomorrow? That's what we've done with LLMs, right? It's like, well, that's going to give you a lot of knowledge, but most of it sucks. mean, so most of what's out there in copy is terrible. So it's learning models have been terrible. So that's why specialty AI is like ours and in our, in our industry, you have to have it to where the people that know what they're doing actually trained individual.

John Jantsch (10:46.665)

Right.

Jon Benson (11:06.487)

in our cases, agents that use not one LLM, but a dozen, you know, can use as many as we need one model rather, but you know, doesn't whatever models are we know are going to be the best ones for the right tasks. So that takes that. And then what we do is a little different. We ask people to go through an assessment to figure out what are their values? Where do they stand? Who are the people they want to attract? And how do they want their their words to appear? So we take care of the persuasion element, but also we see that with the words and phrases that

John Jantsch (11:14.739)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (11:25.885)

Mm.

Jon Benson (11:35.681)

are closer to who they are as a person. So it starts feeling more human. It's important.

John Jantsch (11:40.457)

Yeah, it's interesting. know as we've worked with clients, you know, a lot of them have a fairly large body of work of them talking about things, explaining their products, being who they are. And that element, you know, allows you to build that voice or that brand. But then there is a technical framework element to it as well, isn't it?

Jon Benson (11:58.348)

yeah, totally. mean, if you go too far outside that framework, you're going to lose a lot of the things that we already know work so well, persuasion wise. So the goal is not to try to convince somebody of something, it's to compel them to take action on what they already hold valuable. So all you're doing is aligning your offer with what they already hold to be valuable. And that's the skill of copywriting. that's something that AI is, I think, obviously I'm biased.

John Jantsch (12:05.639)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jon Benson (12:27.481)

So I'm gonna say we're kind of the exception, but AI in general has gotten a little better at this. I'd like to think we've led some of the way in that, to getting to where there's more of that human element involved.

John Jantsch (12:39.091)

So talk a little bit about that because there's certainly a lot of people, creatives in particular, that have felt like they have this special sauce, this special talent to create that content, to create beauty, to create things. And maybe AI has kind of taken that. I mean, it's eventually going to get good at doing video and graphics and things. So where is the human element, know, remain?

Jon Benson (12:57.314)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

So think of it as like, I look at it as the difference between using a hammer and using a jackhammer or something that's a powered hammer, right? It's a pneumonic hammer or whatever they call those automatic hammers. So you've got an automatic hammer and there's a skill to hitting a nail with a hammer, right? The question is, as a carpenter, is that really what you want to be known for is I strike a nail head perfectly with a hammer every single time.

Or if you could have that done for you instantaneously with something that just tapped it in, what would you do with the time that you have left now? You would probably spend that doing the creative portion of things and like, I can do this, I can build this. And this is what the same thing is true of AI and copywriters. It's like, we're not trying to put people out of business. We're giving them the ultimate power tools. So a lot of the grunt work, a lot of the research, a lot of the structure you don't have to worry about. Then you can go in and finesse it.

and everything sounds so much better when you do that. We want people to do that. there's still a knowledge factor that I think that copywriters need to have. And sure, some people do use tools like Vinson. They just don't think about it. They click a few buttons and they go, because it works. But the copywriters, they want to put their signature on it. And this just gives you the ultimate way of doing that. It's like hiring the best ghostwriter you can think of. So if I hired a copywriter to write something for me and they sent it back and I read it, went, wow, that's just freaking fantastic.

Jon Benson (14:26.768)

then I could find these little bitty things in there that I only know or that I primarily know. And then I'm gonna go, oh, you I'm gonna change this over here. And then I might find a creative thing that he said or she said that I wouldn't have thought of. And that now becomes a campaign. My mind goes, oh, wow, I didn't think about that. I can turn this into a campaign. Well, that's not AI, that's me, right? So if the AI wrote it or a human wrote it, wouldn't matter. And so that's what we do that's a little different because we coach people live once a week so that we can help inspire them to.

Use the words that are coming out and how can we use it to help market their business more effectively.

John Jantsch (15:01.011)

So I think one of the areas that obviously is a breakthrough is in testing. Obviously, any copywriter worth their salt is like, I think this is good, but let's test it, right? And now we can test 200 versions for not much more time than it took us to create that one beautiful one. What do you think that that is going to ultimately do in terms of people's effectiveness?

Jon Benson (15:07.088)

Mm-hmm.

Jon Benson (15:15.087)

Right.

Jon Benson (15:26.992)

If people knew what the guys that are making hundreds of millions of dollars at this stuff do, if you knew the amount of testing that went into it, most people would just give up. would stop. I'll give you an example. I have a good friend of mine that is the top of their industry on meta and they flew out to meet the actual real meta heads of ads because there's the ones that they give people and there were ones that give these people.

You know, they give them $100,000 to spend just to play with just because we want to see what your new creative team can do. They will run 800 ads at a time in any given month. They're running 800 versions of an ad. So there's just no way to do that effectively without AI. that's when they were the early adopters to this. Now they can run those kinds of things. And it's like, they can figure out what works and guess what? One or two might scale or three. It's, it's, doesn't matter how good the writers are.

It's like some hook, some angle may work and that angle if it works can just skyrocket a business. So I think it's one of the best things about AI is the ability to split test leads of a sales letter or VSL, the split test, obviously campaigns and then add campaigns and things like that. It's very helpful.

John Jantsch (16:37.907)

So you've spent a lot of time building a reputation about ethical persuasion, but it's not a very far leap to go to things that are maybe not that ethical, right? To go from just what you talked about as getting people to do something that they want to do or that's good for them and they just, they need to hear it, to manipulation. So, and I feel like

Jon Benson (16:43.12)

Mm-hmm.

Jon Benson (16:55.346)

yeah.

Jon Benson (17:01.796)

Right.

Right.

John Jantsch (17:07.503)

AI doesn't really care in some cases. how do you, what are the guard rails that you really use to kind of stay within what, you you talked about beliefs, your beliefs.

Jon Benson (17:10.072)

Mm-mm. Mm-hmm.

Jon Benson (17:20.24)

Yeah, well the guardrails I use that we actually that's a technical term and we use specific guardrails in our agents that are that when somebody sets up Benson correctly, we use it's called a buyer alignment profile that we have people go through. In fact, I'm going to give it to your listeners for free that could go through that and get their buyer alignment, which is a 15 page report of the words and phrases you should use and not use. And that exactly fits that bill of that sets up guardrails. It's like use this because I value X, Y and Z. What do the words of I

value X, Y, and Z translate to in copywriting lingo? Because it doesn't mean like if I value freedom, you don't want to use like, hey, since you love freedom as much as I do, then you're going to love so and so shoes. That doesn't make any sense, right? And so it's just too hamfisted and heavy handed and all that stuff. So what phrases do people that love freedom as a core value? What usage would they use and what would they never say? And it's what they would never say that the Garbrills of that. So in other words, that prevents the

John Jantsch (17:58.441)

All right.

Jon Benson (18:16.913)

AI from going over the balcony, so to say, when it comes down to overly persuasive language.

John Jantsch (18:23.251)

So for some of the folks that you've worked with, you've probably started to catalog kind some of the biggest mistakes people are doing, making right now using AI. Where do you see people really need to make a shift to make AI more effective for them?

Jon Benson (18:40.579)

it's it to stop thinking of AI as the answer and start thinking of it as a tool is a huge step in the right direction. Also to train whatever AI you're using. Ours is built to be trained, so it's copy paste kind of thing. But if you're going to use Claude or chat GPT or whatever, you need to be able to train it with who you are, what your values are, how what words or phrases to use, what not to use. And you'll find that the memory on this is pretty short. So.

unless you know what you're doing and then we can get into things like instances of open claw and the clawed code and all that stuff. That's very technical and most people don't want to go down that rabbit hole. mean, our guys go down that rabbit hole because we're kind of geeky when it comes to that. But most people want just the best answers that they can without having to become a software engineer. so to do that, yeah, it's a lot of knowledge. It's a lot of like time to say, here's who I am.

John Jantsch (19:08.713)

Mm.

John Jantsch (19:15.774)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:29.822)

me

Jon Benson (19:33.774)

And here's what I want you to do. Now, you can do that to a limited degree in chat and cloud and tools like that. You can do it to a huge degree in our tool because we built it to do that. And that's super important to get the language patterns down. But also, and this is the last thing I'll say, but this is true of copywriting in general. So when people used to hire me, because I don't write copy anymore. I'm solely focused on Benson. when people used to hire me, it was very expensive. I was like.

the probably the most expensive guy in the world for like five or 10 years. And they're certainly one of the most expensive guys in the world. And they would hire me and I would give them a first draft of something like usually a BSL or a sales letter. And they would say, this doesn't sound like me. go, yeah, I know. It's because you suck. Yeah, you don't want to sound like yourself, man. You really don't. it's and it's like, I, I mean, that in kind of a funny way. It's like you're the copy they were writing was just terrible.

And so they were trying to make their terrible copy kind of polish, you know, a poly put, put lipstick on a pig's episode. So you can't do that. You have to like be able to understand some basic persuasion and then work in. And this is what I didn't do when I was a pro when I was writing early days of copywriting work in their values. I figured this out later in my career. It's like, I can work in their value statements and figure out what the words are. But that was just tons of research. We'd charge like 15, 20 grand just to do the research to figure out like

John Jantsch (20:33.415)

Mm-hmm.

Jon Benson (20:58.491)

What are the words we should use and shouldn't use and phrases and all that stuff. And unless somebody came along that was like an identical client, we'd have to do that all the time. Now it's automatic, which is fantastic.

John Jantsch (21:06.473)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, John, I appreciate you dropping by the duct tape marketing podcast. Is there someplace you mentioned that you had a gift you wanted to invite people? And obviously I'd love to know where they can find out more about Benson.

Jon Benson (21:15.471)

Yeah. Yeah. Sure. If you go to free buyer profile.com, that's free buyer profile.com. You can take our buyer alignment profile, which will test to figure out your core values, help you figure them out. We use a lot of different standardized testing models in these questions. And in about 10 to 15 minutes, we'll get you a report.

that you can use in your marketing that will tell you words and phrases that you should think about using and words and phrases you should definitely avoid. will give you all the NLP, all the magic sauce while still sounding like you and will also help elucidate what you already hold valuable and the people that

John Jantsch (21:53.481)

Great tool for training any AI tool, suspect, that you're going to use. Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you dropping by. It's freebuyerprofile.com and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road,

Jon Benson (21:57.125)

Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Thank you, John. I appreciate the time.

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John Jantsch (00:02.19)

So what if every time you hired too fast, launched a new channel or added a service line, you were making a bet that your business actually wasn't prepared to win. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jance and my guest today is Mark Roberge. He's the co-founder of Stage Two Capital, founding chief revenue officer at HubSpot and the author of a book we're going to talk about today, The Science of Scaling.

Mark helped grow HubSpot from zero to IPO and then brought what he had learned into Harvard Business School where he taught founders how to grow without blowing up what they built. His framework gives business owners a way to use evidence rather than instinct or outside pressure to decide when they've truly earned the right to scale. So Mark, welcome to the show.

Mark Roberge (00:53.259)

Thanks, John. That's not my copy and I love it. Seriously, I love how you put it.

John Jantsch (00:59.105)

Awesome. good. Well, you know, we were talking before we got started, you and I met some 20 years ago when HubSpot was a nascent business. think maybe the first conference there were 500 people, something of that neighborhood.

Mark Roberge (01:04.916)

Yeah.

Mark Roberge (01:11.393)

Yeah, I was like in a Marriott in Cambridge. I have like, I remember specifically a couple of things about you. I think you were the most famous one of our early partners. I think I remember my last in-person chat with you was in some steakhouse in like South Boston or something. Cause I remember two people came up to you and asked for your autograph and you were like super humble about it. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is crazy.

John Jantsch (01:21.271)

Ha ha ha!

John Jantsch (01:27.438)

You

John Jantsch (01:35.288)

Well, I'm glad I wasn't a jerk. That's for sure. Awesome. Well, let's get into your book a little bit. So I mentioned HubSpot, Harvard, now you back companies as a VC. Did something you learned or showed up across all three of those roles kind of make you say, I need to write this book?

Mark Roberge (01:37.365)

Hahaha

Mark Roberge (01:54.207)

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's kind of funny that we can unpack as much as you want, but in reflecting the last 20 years of my life professionally, I've given up on having a plan because I never intended to go into sales. I never applied for HubSpot. I never applied or intended to be a professor at Harvard. I never intended to start a venture capital firm.

And I never intended to write either the sales acceleration formula 12 years ago or the scientist's killing last year. These were all things that like people were like, would you be willing to do this? So they did, they do just like show up and the way that this one, as both books unfolded was a, like you, I am blessed with the opportunity to do a number of keynotes every year. and I, for the big ones like saster, I tended to try to do something fairly original for the year.

So I've, you every year I do something original. So I've given like 20 to 25 brand new speeches over the last decade. And this one was just like a pattern I saw after like eight years of being out of HubSpot as an independent board member, as a professor, as an advisor, as an investor, in why companies, the few that went IPO and billion dollar valuations versus the ones that went bankrupt was just this.

really non-strategic, non-rigorous perspective on when to scale and how fast. And half do it too early, too fast. Half of them wait too long and go too slow. It's more about going the optimal time. I started speaking about it and I'm like, it's ridiculous how many classes and rigorous frameworks we have on accounting for and accruing revenue, but not on scaling revenue. And it just went viral and kept speaking about it, kept writing about it. And then Stanford was like, hey, can you write this up?

And here we have it.

John Jantsch (03:47.128)

So the term, you kind of alluded to it, but I'll say it directly, earn the right to scale. It does a lot of work in your framework and your talk. So what does a business owner actually have to prove or do to prove that's true? Like, when do they know I have the right to scale?

Mark Roberge (04:04.286)

Yeah, it's kind of interesting how it unfolds right now. I I've done this with like tractor companies in Brazil and pharmaceutical companies in Japan, but mostly with software companies in Silicon Valley. And it's kind of funny how it's decided. Like the decision on when to scale is usually when someone hands you a fat check, which doesn't sound that strategic.

And so I try to unpack it as two steps that are sequential. One is product market fit and the other is go to market fit. And usually you're like product market fit, like duh, product market fit, duh. But like, what is product market fit? You know, I think a lot of people will say I'm ready to scale when I have product market fit, which I think is a great answer. But then when I ask them what product market fit is,

I get a lot of different answers, most of which are about a certain revenue number, a certain customer number, a certain number of inbound leads. And then I'm like, well, okay, cool. Let's say that you have 200 customers or like 500 inbound leads and everyone's buying, but like people stop using the product. Do you have product market fit? And they're like, okay, no, but

I'll just start, I'll just listen to them and build the product to appease their needs. And I'll be like, okay, well, how will you know when you've achieved it? And they'll be like, when they keep using the product and don't churn. And I'm like, exactly. So like that, that's like the first kind of like pivot mentally for folks is I encourage you to define product market fit, not as a revenue acquisition.

metric, but as a revenue and customer retention metric. And the book talks about how to extract that long-term lagging indicator back to something that you can evaluate in the first week of a customer being with you. Okay, so that's step one, product market fit. And then if you think about it, once you've achieved product market fit, all that means is that when you sign up 10 more customers, they're gonna see value that you promised and stick around.

John Jantsch (06:00.866)

Yes.

Mark Roberge (06:25.372)

It doesn't mean that you've proven that you can acquire and serve them profitably. And that's what go-to-market fit is. And it's measured by UNEconomics. So that's really the, probably the simplest way to describe the work is these two sequences of product market fit and go-to-market fit as measured by retention in the first one and positive UNEconomics in the second.

John Jantsch (06:29.506)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (06:46.018)

Well, since we're defining terms, we probably better step back because I bet you if I asked 100 people, 10 people, 100 people sounds like too much work. If I asked 10 people what the word scale means, we'd probably get a bunch of definitions, more leads, more staff, more tools, but how do you define it?

Mark Roberge (06:59.21)

Sure. Sure.

Mark Roberge (07:07.528)

Yeah. So once you are ready to scale the way and that to your point, yeah, that can mean a lot of things. It could mean how do we scale our culture? How do we scale our engineering team? How do we scale our office space? Blah, blah. First off, I'm, I should be more clear that I'm talking about scaling the revenue. And to your point, scaling revenue, the inputs to that vary quite a bit by business by business. if you're a consumer business, you may just have to spend more on marketing. Something that you know a lot about Joan. if you're a B2B.

John Jantsch (07:15.094)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (07:21.92)

Okay.

Mark Roberge (07:37.513)

sometimes you have to scale fancy outside salespeople if you're selling like rockets to governments. And sometimes you do it through PLG. And again, it's more of like a marketing exercise. So I really talk about scaling the revenue and the principles, apply, whether you're doing it through pure marketing or through, through sales head count. let's for simplicity, let's just talk about scaling through sales head count and the

Big pothole that people make there is even if they follow the guidance of like, let's achieve product market fit first and then go to market fit, and it could take a day, it could take a week, it could take a month, it could take a year, whatever, and now we're ready to scale, they raise money and then they have a target for the year and they hire like 27 reps the next week.

even though they only have one on the team today. And there's just no appreciation of the new capabilities that are needed to hire and onboard and manage 27 reps. Like just like, let's take one piece of it, which is let's kind of pontificate that the hiring quality might be correlated to the number of interview screens we do, qualified interview screens to the hire. If I do,

two interview screens and make a hire, I'm probably not gonna make as good of a hire as if I did 10 interview screens and make a hire. So if we're trying to do 10 and we're making 27 hires, that's 270 qualified interview screens. Where are we getting those candidates? Who's doing the interviews? Nevermind, where's the demand gen gonna come from? Who's gonna ramp them? What about the managers? It's just too driven from a Google Sheet or Excel, and so the simple pivot philosophically is,

Don't think about it as putting the annual plan together and hiring all those reps on January 2nd. Think about it as establishing a hiring pace every month or every quarter. 10 reps a month, boom, boom, boom. As opposed to like 37 at the beginning of the year.

John Jantsch (09:51.791)

So there's all kinds of horror stories of companies that blew up because they grew too fast. Would you say that they scaled too fast or they didn't scale fast enough?

Mark Roberge (09:57.47)

Yes.

Mark Roberge (10:04.928)

Both. have, like I said, it's about half and half. I mean, I would say like the classic examples out there, like an old school one is Groupon, which I think if you look at it from this lens, never really had product market fit. they just like, the promise was like, if you're a Chinese restaurant and give these coupons away, you'll get new customers, but it was really just the existing customers. And then maybe like WeWork never really had go-to-market fit. And that was pretty famously documented story.

John Jantsch (10:21.486)

There's Buzz. There's Buzz.

Mark Roberge (10:35.36)

The ones that didn't scale fast enough, we just don't know, right? Cause they're like, I can name some in our portfolio or people I've worked with over the years, but the reason why we don't know them is cause they just sat there and they were like, they had something, but the co-founders just like wanted to just go too slow and continue to do founder selling and wanted to run a profitable business when it needed to be a blitz scale business. And there's nothing wrong with running a profitable business. just, if you're trying to win in the AI customer support,

John Jantsch (10:38.702)

Yeah, yeah.

Mark Roberge (11:05.258)

category today, you can't be profitable right now. Like there's just certain blitz scale risk that you have in your category that needs to dictate how fast or slow you go.

John Jantsch (11:06.638)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:16.056)

So one of the key elements in science of scaling is evidence over instinct. So if I don't have a giant data team, and I know AI is actually solving some of this right now, but what does evidence actually look like at a startup or smaller business level?

Mark Roberge (11:29.768)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Mark Roberge (11:40.117)

Yeah, I mean, you don't, you definitely don't need like a sophisticated data science team. You don't even need AI agents doing this stuff. Let me just give you like a really simple example. So we talked about product market fit is where I'm, I'm proposing to everyone that it's more about customer value and retention as opposed to customer acquisition. And obviously you need to acquire customers to eventually make them valuable. So it's an input to it.

John Jantsch (11:48.526)

Okay, all right.

Mark Roberge (12:08.34)

The retention is a lagging indicator. So we needed to find a leading indicator of retention. We can't wait a year to know if we have product market fit. I need to know like the week after I acquired the customer or the month after. And so what the book and the work I've been doing with companies for last decade is to help them define their leading indicator of retention. What is it that we can observe in the first month of a customer's experience with you, your product, your service, whatever.

that if we see that, they'll be with you forever. And if we don't, they'll probably churn. And so like, I frame it as P percent of customers do e-event every tee time. Okay, so that sounds like the programmers on the audience are like loving this right now. The history majors are like totally lost, right? So like, just to bring that to life, Slack, 80 % of customers send 2000 team messages every month. HubSpot, 80 % of customers use five or more features in the platform every month, right?

John Jantsch (12:53.55)

You

Mark Roberge (13:08.564)

These are things that can be measured in the first month to give us insight. If we're at 80%, we probably have product market fit. If we have 10%, we definitely don't. I don't need a data scientist to evaluate that. Okay, so these are not overly complicated, like PhD math type things.

John Jantsch (13:20.174)

So.

John Jantsch (13:29.922)

One of the things I've been preaching for 20 years is that when we talk about the customer journey, that retention and advocacy and all the things that come after somebody becomes a customer are part of the customer journey or should be part of the customer journey. And for so many people, it's let's get a customer. And I think what you're really certainly hammering home here is this idea that you're not going to scale without retention and without

Mark Roberge (13:44.234)

Yes!

John Jantsch (13:59.382)

know, referrals or whatever you call it. Yeah.

Mark Roberge (14:01.984)

Spot on. mean, when I hear people like you say this, the conviction continues to escalate, right? Because it's like, another way to say what John is saying here is, let's just talk really tactically. Do not let the dashboards and sales funnels in your CRM end at closed one. That is like literally step four of seven, right? Like let's just like really step back, like very, very like basic, like.

John Jantsch (14:20.468)

Yeah.

Mark Roberge (14:31.654)

know, opportunity stage one is, you know, business, like discovery call and like business and you know, metrics definition. Step two is product validation, demo, blah, blah. Step three is closed one. Step four is set up. Step five is regular engagement. Step six is retention. That's the funnel.

John Jantsch (14:52.558)

He

John Jantsch (14:59.438)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually refer to it, have been referring to it as the hourglass, you know, with the idea being that, the funnel, right, but then it goes back out again. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Roberge (15:06.26)

Totally. And expands. Exactly, because you expand more and like lot of people like winning by design with Jaco and like that's just a great way, the bow tie. A lot of people like it's a really good way to think about it because that usage, it represents that the usage and should grow.

John Jantsch (15:16.589)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:23.576)

So you were at Harvard and name a dozen schools, Stanford, that a lot of people go to those because they've got a big idea or they wanna have a big idea. They wanna turn out the next Google. I'm sure you encountered many founders or would be founders in those environments. What would you like if you were, I'm sure you did this in your class environment.

tell them they're gonna get wrong or how would you coach them of how you think they're thinking about it incorrectly?

Mark Roberge (15:58.009)

I mean, there's a lot to that. I think we covered a lot of them related to the work in terms of like, you know, being more precise around having the business fundamentals in place to be prepared to scale and how you go about scaling. I would say,

I guess I'll add two more to it that come up a lot, one that's related to revenue development to some degree and one that it really isn't. The one I'll mention is having a plan for a moat. And I would say like, when I ask people what their long-term defensibility will be, they often tell me about a feature.

John Jantsch (16:31.992)

Yes.

Mark Roberge (16:45.468)

And when I asked them if they are correct and they start crushing it and start winning, and then the competition realizes it, how long will it take them for them to build that feature? And they say six months. And I say, that's not long-term defensibility. So, so you really have to like, you don't have to prove it on day one. Cause oftentimes it might take something that you have to kind of take one of those design big start small approaches to it.

John Jantsch (17:02.58)

Hehehehe

Mark Roberge (17:14.464)

but you really need to have a vision around if you are right, there will be lots of copycats and the incumbents will try to take you out and you need to make sure that you win there. The other one, unless you want to talk about that, John, I have one more that I can throw out that's pretty popular. Yeah, yeah, the other one that's interesting, I think it was a study done at London School of Economics where they looked at like, I don't know, 5,000 seed funded businesses like 15 years ago and.

John Jantsch (17:22.637)

Yeah.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:31.17)

Yeah, yeah, go for it.

Mark Roberge (17:43.282)

and tried to evaluate the commonalities for those that like exited at, you know, very strong exit. The number one correlation was the founder's ability to up level the executive team around them as they went through the various phases of growth. And it's like, it's so pronounced in my journey with some of these folks. It's like, it's so hard to do too. Like it's so hard for like a founder to like stare someone in the eyes who've been there in the trenches with them from day one for three years.

and be able to communicate that they are over their head and that the business needs someone ready for the next stage. How you deliver that, how you recognize it, how you have the guts to say it, how you like move through that and still feel like a human and still feel like that person has been made whole. Like that's such a difficult skill to build, but that there's so much correlation with successful founders and CEOs and in

developing and executing that skill.

John Jantsch (18:43.372)

Well, and let's take it up one level. Many times the business outgrows the founder, right? So they may be having that conversation with themselves, right? Yeah.

Mark Roberge (18:48.714)

Sure. It's very rare that they're there. Totally. Yeah. And that lots of times the board has to manage that. think we, we went from an, like a culture or like a tactic around that. would say in the eighties and nineties when venture capital was much smaller and startups were, it just, was a much smaller portion of the economy. VCs were notorious for investing in these young technicians and then

fire in them. And I think in the early 2000s, venture took a different approach. They didn't want to get a reputation for firing CEOs. So they did what I call the Sheryl Sandberg, which is to like bring in the, the operator, but keep the CEO, which is good. think that's great. think a lot of times that CEO can sort of graduate up to being a

face to the organization, a driver of the culture, a person to be in key meetings with customers, to be on the road, but like don't have to be or nor qualified to be like the day-to-day operators, hence like today's COO president role. So, but yeah, sometimes founders, they're like not willing to let go. And I have to be like, I have to be like, do you even understand that you have graduated to an era and scale that every CEO

John Jantsch (20:00.782)

Yes, yes.

Mark Roberge (20:15.519)

founder dreams of, we're basically offering to pay for someone to do all the work that you hate and have you just do the work you love, which is product vision, talking to customers and talking to the market. So it's like, it takes a little reframing, you know.

John Jantsch (20:17.56)

Yeah, that's right.

John Jantsch (20:23.598)

You

John Jantsch (20:33.16)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you, I think your PR people mentioned this, they're donating the proceeds to the book to McLean Hospital for Mental Health Research. Is there an intentional connection of the subject of scaling to mental health?

Mark Roberge (20:42.014)

Yeah.

Mark Roberge (20:48.113)

my gosh. Huge. Well, not so much. It's very light. It's more of an intentional connection to the author. and it's just something as you've experienced, John, it like you get up, you get up in the morning and do these things three times more aggressively when you have a cause like this around you. And there's two personal reasons and thank you for providing a platform to talk about them. The first one is mental health has played an enormous piece in my own life.

John Jantsch (20:55.992)

Yeah.

Mark Roberge (21:18.259)

I have been a caregiver, a direct caregiver to many loved ones and I've been a patient. And I can stand here and say this because I've been blessed with certain resume wins that society values and I can be braver than most. And I'm sure by saying that some people may be hesitant to work with me. And I just think we need to fight that stigma more. Like we've come a long way in a generation, but

Even to this day, I think a lot of people will be interviewing a candidate and find out they survived cancer 10 years ago and it will elevate their perception of them versus if they found out that they overcame a serious mental illness, they may have some concern and both are just a disease. They're often genetic. So that's part of the personal driver. And the second one is I think in this moment in tech, there's a hundred times more capital talent.

John Jantsch (22:02.03)

Yes.

John Jantsch (22:07.308)

Yes.

Mark Roberge (22:17.009)

an effort going into building AI and next to nothing in helping society adapt to the world that about to become. And I think we as technicians need to change that. We can't delegate this to Washington or economists. They're just not close enough to it. And we just need to like really diversify our efforts away from just building and profiting toward

John Jantsch (22:25.347)

Yes.

Mark Roberge (22:44.265)

helping society adapt to this new world. like with every tech revolution, we ended up better as a society, but there are scars along the way. It happened with the internet. They're about to be really bad with AI if we don't do anything. So I think we all need to find a little thing to do. And right now that's my little thing to do.

John Jantsch (22:51.734)

Yes.

John Jantsch (22:59.914)

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Any way you'd invite people to connect with you, find out more about your work as well as your latest book.

Mark Roberge (23:11.315)

Yeah, I'm all over. mean, LinkedIn is probably where I'm most at. I'm trying to hang out on TikTok more, John, just to like, because I need to like talk to these 22 year old founders as well, which is awesome. So I'm trying to find where they are. But I'm mostly on LinkedIn if folks want to go on there and collaborate.

John Jantsch (23:25.55)

Well again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll run into you someday in a steakhouse in South Boston. I don't know how much that'll be worth to you, if you got a pen, I'll do it. All right. Thanks, Mark.

Mark Roberge (23:32.305)

I'd love it and maybe I'll ask for your autograph, John.

Mark Roberge (23:42.578)

All right, it's great to see you. Thank you.

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