John Jantsch (00:01.651)

So what if the real opportunity with AI is not replacing human creativity but expanding it by turning entrepreneurs into better editors, directors, and decision makers? Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Jon Benson. He's a copywriter, entrepreneur, and AI pioneer best known for creating the video sales letter, one of those terms that people just use like it's been around forever.

A format that shapes modern digital marketing. is long centered on ethical persuasion and authentic connection. And more recently, he developed BNSN, an AI platform trained on high converting campaigns for small businesses. So John, welcome to the show.

Jon Benson (00:29.9)

Yeah.

Jon Benson (00:47.212)

Hey, John. Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (00:49.585)

So let's, I assume you have to do this a little bit of your time when you go on shows like this, but the term VSL, you know, is kind of entered the, the marketing vernacular. Talk to me a little bit about, I've been doing this for 30 years. That was probably 12, 15 years ago, really, when that kind of burst on the scene as an innovation. You want to talk a little bit about what that's done to your trajectory, I suppose.

Jon Benson (00:55.202)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. yeah.

Jon Benson (01:02.04)

Mm-hmm.

Jon Benson (01:16.216)

Yeah, believe it or not, it's 20 years old this year. So 2006. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. It's, mean, it was, it, yeah, everything changed that the, day that happened, the 30 days later, everything changed from my offer that I did it for, you know, we went from like struggling onto my second book that I wrote in, in fitness and then went to a million dollars.

John Jantsch (01:18.537)

20 years, okay.

Jon Benson (01:39.886)

a week and a month rather in traffic cost, you people buying that kind of money and going up to even higher than that. So it was crazy. And then, and then all of people started calling me and asking me to write VSLs for them. And I'm not, I wasn't a copywriter. that's not, never been my claim to fame until after this happened. And then I had to get good at writing copy. So that's what happened.

John Jantsch (02:01.939)

That's funny. So you said you had written a book about gym ownership? Is that what you said?

Jon Benson (02:10.663)

I've written six books in fitness, so weight loss, fitness, bodybuilding, yeah, so that whole thing has been a passion.

John Jantsch (02:12.947)

Fitness, fitness, okay. Okay, so are you one of those people that that was your passion and you just had to learn how to do marketing? And so this whole idea of studying persuasion and conversion and innovation, is that something that was really just picked up because you're like, I better get good at that?

Jon Benson (02:24.748)

Yeah.

Jon Benson (02:34.478)

It was picked up specifically for copywriting, yes, but I studied persuasion in college. Actually, I was studying MLP in college. I was fascinated by how you can basically get people to listen to you and hear what you're actually trying to communicate and motivate them to make changes based on things that you believe at least are good for them. So you're not trying to manipulate them. You're just trying to motivate them. And I was always into like, how can I motivate and connect with people deeper? So I studied the MLP back then, way back then.

John Jantsch (02:39.731)

Mm.

Jon Benson (03:03.22)

and mail order course from, from Bandler. And that got me into Tony Robbins and that led me into even deeper persuasion issues. And, and just was always really fascinated by it. And that led to me being into the advertising world. And that would, that led eventually to writing a book with it. Yeah. I actually would have the book thing came about because I'd always been passionate about, bodybuilding and fitness and things like that growing up and athlete. I was an athlete most of my life. And then

ended up sedentary and got ended up obese in my late 20s and early 30s. I had 50 inch waist and had a heart attack at 38. So I was like, it was like a train wreck of health. And that got me back into it. So that's the Fit Over 40 book was written based on that, on turning that around. And then I interviewed a bunch of other people because I didn't think I was enough for a book. So I did 52 people that did the same.

John Jantsch (03:55.283)

So I'm curious, this is a question, unfortunately, I feel like I'm asking almost every guest these days, but how has AI changed that element of copywriting for good or bad?

Jon Benson (04:00.942)

It's

Jon Benson (04:08.494)

So my goal with AI and copywriting, I've been doing copywriting software since 2010. So this is going to date me a lot, but in AI, in early nascent AI in 2017 and working with early LLMs in 2019. So very, very, very early into this thing and trying to convince everybody, this was the thing that we wanted to do. And the reason why is because I was, I had these courses that I would teach people how to write VSOs and I knew how hard it was for me to learn all the copywriting in and outs and

and develop my own style, which I did. And I said, well, what, what if I could have software that would do it for them? And the average business owner doesn't have time to do that. They just want the copy that converts. So I've seen it from 15 years away going, I know this is going to happen eventually. And so we decided that the software is pronounced Benson. That's not my last name. It's just my last name without the vowels. And, and yeah, yeah, but it's, cool that you can spell it out. That's all right. and so we did Benson originally, it was going to be called,

John Jantsch (04:56.529)

okay. Not BNSM like I butchered it, okay?

Jon Benson (05:06.35)

It was going to, because it was the first AI to actually write a long form VSL. And I was working with, with Jasper at the time they were called Jarvis, but I was the first guy in the copywriter to train anything on an LLM. And they ended up with a 62nd VSL out of all the training. I think, yeah, I think we can do this in a different way. And we ended up being, you know, having a 7,000 word VSL come out of our AI and it sounded like a real VSL.

John Jantsch (05:14.729)

Sure, yeah.

Jon Benson (05:32.663)

It didn't sound like chat, GBT, it didn't sound like Claude, it sounded like a real VSL. And so that was our claim to fame. And since then we just, of course got, we were very early into the agentic phase. So we've just gotten better and better at that. And so my goal was to replace myself. That's what I wanted to do. I wanted to say, if I can, if I can use this to write a VSL, which I have, sells pages for my own stuff, which I have, then I know that it's going to be good enough to, for prime time. And that was the, that was the goal to do. yeah.

John Jantsch (06:02.549)

So talk to, obviously we've got more to explore in AI, but talk to me a little bit about the VSL itself. mean, it has become very mainstream. I mean, you hear people talk about it, whether they know what it is or not. They talk about it as part of their funnel, you know, today. So is it overdone? I mean, is it over?

Jon Benson (06:06.094)

Mm-hmm.

Jon Benson (06:10.316)

Mm. Yep.

yeah.

Jon Benson (06:21.806)

Yeah, every year I hear that I've heard that for 20 years. So it literally 20 years. So the first year I came out with it and said, Oh, it's already and then Ryan Dias, who's a good friend of mine made the mistake of saying when he came out and promoted his own little mini VSO course and he later gave me credit for which was really nice of him and everything. But he said, Oh, sales letters are dead. You'll never do another sales. And I'm like, dude, I've never said that, you know, I think everything works if you let it and VSO is just happened to keep on working and they just ask, ask Agora.

John Jantsch (06:24.157)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jon Benson (06:51.022)

They work. I mean, yeah, they work. They work really well and now people are using BSLs in feed So you've got the meta ads that are basically short BSLs that use the same psychology Just compressed into five two to five minutes. So we've been doing that for 15 years as well So yeah, and then they go to a longer BSL So they they still work just as sales pages work just as webinars can work everything can work It just depends on what you're wanting to sell and how you're and how you approach it But the words are the consistent thing

So if the words aren't there, if the words don't reflect an actual human underneath it, people sense it a mile away, which was our goal with Benson was to create humanized AI. How do we do this? How do we create AI that doesn't sound robotic? It doesn't sound like, you know, chat GPT writing an email, it's asking a rhetorical question. And the very first sentence, you know, this kind of really bad AI copy that we see all the time. How do we do this and actually sound like a real A-list copywriter? And that was, that's been our focus for three and a half years now.

John Jantsch (07:20.456)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:48.413)

You know, initially the large innovation was that it was not a talking head on video. It was the words. Is that a key component of it?

Jon Benson (07:56.174)

Mm-hmm.

Jon Benson (08:01.113)

You know, it depends on what you're trying to sell. We have seen split tests with video beating words only, and we've seen words only beat video. It really depends on what it is. And what works today, a year from now, will be something you want to reverse. So for a while there was like my friend Craig who writes for Golden Hippo, and he's done amazingly well building a billion dollar company from, he's an amazing writer. But he was one of the first guys working with Gundry to do a lot of video.

on the front end of a VSL, but talking to him behind the scenes, so to say, we know that it's still like a Google Doc and the words are everything. So he slaves over the words, man, getting the words just right. So all the video in the world is not gonna save you if your words suck. It just isn't gonna happen. So the words are still the most important.

John Jantsch (08:46.077)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So one of the knocks on AI, of course, is it's made it very easy for people to create really crappy content. you see it all the time now, right? It's like volumes of really bad content. So why can't people create better content? What's the mistake they're making? Is it simply just a matter of being lazy?

Jon Benson (08:54.831)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jon Benson (09:11.983)

No, it's the matter of the LLMs or the in our case, it's the agents not knowing you. And this is where it gets a little bit a little bit hairy for people, because there has to be an element of your personality that's OK to be known. as the same thing would be true if you went and hired me as a copywriter. Like I would ask you if you had an offer and you wanted to whatever your offer would be. I would start asking you lots of questions that you probably don't think is related to your offer.

John Jantsch (09:19.719)

Yeah, yeah,

Jon Benson (09:40.336)

Now I'm not talking about like when asking all these really intensive personal questions, but I want to know what your values are. I want to know where you stand. Who do you want to attract as customers? What are you against? What are you not just what the, what the product does? Cause the product or the offer, whatever it does, I that's, that's not that difficult. Um, what's difficult is to make that story resonate with people that will automatically hear and go, Oh, that sounds like something that I can automatically relate to. And that's what a really good copy. does. We don't try to sell people that are

not interested or just completely need to go from a level one to a level five awareness, that's really not what we wanna do. We wanna target people that are already there, because you got plenty of people like that, but if you write, if you go into a chat or clod or whatever and you say, write me an email or write me an ad or rep me a VSO, and they don't know who you are, they don't have a good feel of your words, feel of your personality, it's gonna write stuff that's schlocky, because it's trained on the internet. So if you just think about this for a moment, and everyone listening to me will get this,

John Jantsch (10:35.294)

Yeah, yeah.

Jon Benson (10:39.043)

It's like, can you imagine training anyone to do anything by telling them, go read the internet and get back to me tomorrow? That's what we've done with LLMs, right? It's like, well, that's going to give you a lot of knowledge, but most of it sucks. mean, so most of what's out there in copy is terrible. So it's learning models have been terrible. So that's why specialty AI is like ours and in our, in our industry, you have to have it to where the people that know what they're doing actually trained individual.

John Jantsch (10:46.665)

Right.

Jon Benson (11:06.487)

in our cases, agents that use not one LLM, but a dozen, you know, can use as many as we need one model rather, but you know, doesn't whatever models are we know are going to be the best ones for the right tasks. So that takes that. And then what we do is a little different. We ask people to go through an assessment to figure out what are their values? Where do they stand? Who are the people they want to attract? And how do they want their their words to appear? So we take care of the persuasion element, but also we see that with the words and phrases that

John Jantsch (11:14.739)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (11:25.885)

Mm.

Jon Benson (11:35.681)

are closer to who they are as a person. So it starts feeling more human. It's important.

John Jantsch (11:40.457)

Yeah, it's interesting. know as we've worked with clients, you know, a lot of them have a fairly large body of work of them talking about things, explaining their products, being who they are. And that element, you know, allows you to build that voice or that brand. But then there is a technical framework element to it as well, isn't it?

Jon Benson (11:58.348)

yeah, totally. mean, if you go too far outside that framework, you're going to lose a lot of the things that we already know work so well, persuasion wise. So the goal is not to try to convince somebody of something, it's to compel them to take action on what they already hold valuable. So all you're doing is aligning your offer with what they already hold to be valuable. And that's the skill of copywriting. that's something that AI is, I think, obviously I'm biased.

John Jantsch (12:05.639)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jon Benson (12:27.481)

So I'm gonna say we're kind of the exception, but AI in general has gotten a little better at this. I'd like to think we've led some of the way in that, to getting to where there's more of that human element involved.

John Jantsch (12:39.091)

So talk a little bit about that because there's certainly a lot of people, creatives in particular, that have felt like they have this special sauce, this special talent to create that content, to create beauty, to create things. And maybe AI has kind of taken that. I mean, it's eventually going to get good at doing video and graphics and things. So where is the human element, know, remain?

Jon Benson (12:57.314)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

So think of it as like, I look at it as the difference between using a hammer and using a jackhammer or something that's a powered hammer, right? It's a pneumonic hammer or whatever they call those automatic hammers. So you've got an automatic hammer and there's a skill to hitting a nail with a hammer, right? The question is, as a carpenter, is that really what you want to be known for is I strike a nail head perfectly with a hammer every single time.

Or if you could have that done for you instantaneously with something that just tapped it in, what would you do with the time that you have left now? You would probably spend that doing the creative portion of things and like, I can do this, I can build this. And this is what the same thing is true of AI and copywriters. It's like, we're not trying to put people out of business. We're giving them the ultimate power tools. So a lot of the grunt work, a lot of the research, a lot of the structure you don't have to worry about. Then you can go in and finesse it.

and everything sounds so much better when you do that. We want people to do that. there's still a knowledge factor that I think that copywriters need to have. And sure, some people do use tools like Vinson. They just don't think about it. They click a few buttons and they go, because it works. But the copywriters, they want to put their signature on it. And this just gives you the ultimate way of doing that. It's like hiring the best ghostwriter you can think of. So if I hired a copywriter to write something for me and they sent it back and I read it, went, wow, that's just freaking fantastic.

Jon Benson (14:26.768)

then I could find these little bitty things in there that I only know or that I primarily know. And then I'm gonna go, oh, you I'm gonna change this over here. And then I might find a creative thing that he said or she said that I wouldn't have thought of. And that now becomes a campaign. My mind goes, oh, wow, I didn't think about that. I can turn this into a campaign. Well, that's not AI, that's me, right? So if the AI wrote it or a human wrote it, wouldn't matter. And so that's what we do that's a little different because we coach people live once a week so that we can help inspire them to.

Use the words that are coming out and how can we use it to help market their business more effectively.

John Jantsch (15:01.011)

So I think one of the areas that obviously is a breakthrough is in testing. Obviously, any copywriter worth their salt is like, I think this is good, but let's test it, right? And now we can test 200 versions for not much more time than it took us to create that one beautiful one. What do you think that that is going to ultimately do in terms of people's effectiveness?

Jon Benson (15:07.088)

Mm-hmm.

Jon Benson (15:15.087)

Right.

Jon Benson (15:26.992)

If people knew what the guys that are making hundreds of millions of dollars at this stuff do, if you knew the amount of testing that went into it, most people would just give up. would stop. I'll give you an example. I have a good friend of mine that is the top of their industry on meta and they flew out to meet the actual real meta heads of ads because there's the ones that they give people and there were ones that give these people.

You know, they give them $100,000 to spend just to play with just because we want to see what your new creative team can do. They will run 800 ads at a time in any given month. They're running 800 versions of an ad. So there's just no way to do that effectively without AI. that's when they were the early adopters to this. Now they can run those kinds of things. And it's like, they can figure out what works and guess what? One or two might scale or three. It's, it's, doesn't matter how good the writers are.

It's like some hook, some angle may work and that angle if it works can just skyrocket a business. So I think it's one of the best things about AI is the ability to split test leads of a sales letter or VSL, the split test, obviously campaigns and then add campaigns and things like that. It's very helpful.

John Jantsch (16:37.907)

So you've spent a lot of time building a reputation about ethical persuasion, but it's not a very far leap to go to things that are maybe not that ethical, right? To go from just what you talked about as getting people to do something that they want to do or that's good for them and they just, they need to hear it, to manipulation. So, and I feel like

Jon Benson (16:43.12)

Mm-hmm.

Jon Benson (16:55.346)

yeah.

Jon Benson (17:01.796)

Right.

Right.

John Jantsch (17:07.503)

AI doesn't really care in some cases. how do you, what are the guard rails that you really use to kind of stay within what, you you talked about beliefs, your beliefs.

Jon Benson (17:10.072)

Mm-mm. Mm-hmm.

Jon Benson (17:20.24)

Yeah, well the guardrails I use that we actually that's a technical term and we use specific guardrails in our agents that are that when somebody sets up Benson correctly, we use it's called a buyer alignment profile that we have people go through. In fact, I'm going to give it to your listeners for free that could go through that and get their buyer alignment, which is a 15 page report of the words and phrases you should use and not use. And that exactly fits that bill of that sets up guardrails. It's like use this because I value X, Y and Z. What do the words of I

value X, Y, and Z translate to in copywriting lingo? Because it doesn't mean like if I value freedom, you don't want to use like, hey, since you love freedom as much as I do, then you're going to love so and so shoes. That doesn't make any sense, right? And so it's just too hamfisted and heavy handed and all that stuff. So what phrases do people that love freedom as a core value? What usage would they use and what would they never say? And it's what they would never say that the Garbrills of that. So in other words, that prevents the

John Jantsch (17:58.441)

All right.

Jon Benson (18:16.913)

AI from going over the balcony, so to say, when it comes down to overly persuasive language.

John Jantsch (18:23.251)

So for some of the folks that you've worked with, you've probably started to catalog kind some of the biggest mistakes people are doing, making right now using AI. Where do you see people really need to make a shift to make AI more effective for them?

Jon Benson (18:40.579)

it's it to stop thinking of AI as the answer and start thinking of it as a tool is a huge step in the right direction. Also to train whatever AI you're using. Ours is built to be trained, so it's copy paste kind of thing. But if you're going to use Claude or chat GPT or whatever, you need to be able to train it with who you are, what your values are, how what words or phrases to use, what not to use. And you'll find that the memory on this is pretty short. So.

unless you know what you're doing and then we can get into things like instances of open claw and the clawed code and all that stuff. That's very technical and most people don't want to go down that rabbit hole. mean, our guys go down that rabbit hole because we're kind of geeky when it comes to that. But most people want just the best answers that they can without having to become a software engineer. so to do that, yeah, it's a lot of knowledge. It's a lot of like time to say, here's who I am.

John Jantsch (19:08.713)

Mm.

John Jantsch (19:15.774)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:29.822)

me

Jon Benson (19:33.774)

And here's what I want you to do. Now, you can do that to a limited degree in chat and cloud and tools like that. You can do it to a huge degree in our tool because we built it to do that. And that's super important to get the language patterns down. But also, and this is the last thing I'll say, but this is true of copywriting in general. So when people used to hire me, because I don't write copy anymore. I'm solely focused on Benson. when people used to hire me, it was very expensive. I was like.

the probably the most expensive guy in the world for like five or 10 years. And they're certainly one of the most expensive guys in the world. And they would hire me and I would give them a first draft of something like usually a BSL or a sales letter. And they would say, this doesn't sound like me. go, yeah, I know. It's because you suck. Yeah, you don't want to sound like yourself, man. You really don't. it's and it's like, I, I mean, that in kind of a funny way. It's like you're the copy they were writing was just terrible.

And so they were trying to make their terrible copy kind of polish, you know, a poly put, put lipstick on a pig's episode. So you can't do that. You have to like be able to understand some basic persuasion and then work in. And this is what I didn't do when I was a pro when I was writing early days of copywriting work in their values. I figured this out later in my career. It's like, I can work in their value statements and figure out what the words are. But that was just tons of research. We'd charge like 15, 20 grand just to do the research to figure out like

John Jantsch (20:33.415)

Mm-hmm.

Jon Benson (20:58.491)

What are the words we should use and shouldn't use and phrases and all that stuff. And unless somebody came along that was like an identical client, we'd have to do that all the time. Now it's automatic, which is fantastic.

John Jantsch (21:06.473)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, John, I appreciate you dropping by the duct tape marketing podcast. Is there someplace you mentioned that you had a gift you wanted to invite people? And obviously I'd love to know where they can find out more about Benson.

Jon Benson (21:15.471)

Yeah. Yeah. Sure. If you go to free buyer profile.com, that's free buyer profile.com. You can take our buyer alignment profile, which will test to figure out your core values, help you figure them out. We use a lot of different standardized testing models in these questions. And in about 10 to 15 minutes, we'll get you a report.

that you can use in your marketing that will tell you words and phrases that you should think about using and words and phrases you should definitely avoid. will give you all the NLP, all the magic sauce while still sounding like you and will also help elucidate what you already hold valuable and the people that

John Jantsch (21:53.481)

Great tool for training any AI tool, suspect, that you're going to use. Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you dropping by. It's freebuyerprofile.com and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road,

Jon Benson (21:57.125)

Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Thank you, John. I appreciate the time.

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John Jantsch (00:02.129)

What are the biggest threat from AI? Isn't that it replaces your job. It's that it exposes the parts of you that were never fully developed in the first place. Sound interesting? Stay tuned. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Derek Reddall. He's a true time bestselling author and transformational leader who has spent over 25 years helping people unlock what he calls their emergent

potential, the idea that everything you need to become is already inside you waiting for the right conditions. We're going to talk about his new book, A Whole New Human, 10 Ways We Must Evolve to Survive in the AI Age. There we go. Got it right. Derek, welcome to the show.

Derek (00:48.558)

Thank you, John. It's an honor and pleasure to be here.

John Jantsch (00:50.981)

So we're not, some tells me we're not gonna talk about prompt engineering, at least not right off the bat, are we?

Derek (00:55.374)

Maybe how we have to prompt the AI within us, but not more than the AI outside of us, yes.

John Jantsch (00:59.783)

Right.

So for 25 years, your teaching has started with this idea of emergence. There's a lot of people on here that maybe that's the first time they've heard that word applied particularly to self-development or self-improvement. You want to give us kind of what you mean by that?

Derek (01:21.304)

Sure, I mean obviously in science there's an understanding of the emergent property of things and you know that something emerges that is more than or different than the sum of the initial parts etc. you know oxygen and what is it hydrogen comes together to make water so you get water as an emergent property and so that's one way to think about emergence and what I speak of it it's more about an experience I actually had

after a near death experience where I saw this and I began to see that, you know, in every living thing, it begins with a seed. There's a pattern. There's a pattern behind everything that is alive. And whether it's the acorn, the oak is already there in the acorn. And even from a quantum physics standpoint or a platonic form standpoint, the oak, the idea of the oak is a pattern in the field.

as a part of the superposition. So we can get scientific about it or not, but the bottom line is the oak tree is already there and it's there in potential. It's there in a pattern and the mechanics of its fulfillment are there. It's simply waiting for the right conditions. When the conditions are a match to the pattern within anything, that potential emerges naturally. And when I saw that

not just theoretically, but experienced it and began to consider there was a pattern in me. There was a seed pattern planted in the soil of my soul or whatever and began to ask what that was, you know. And this really brings us back to the Oracle of Delphi and the OG success self-help guru when she said, know thyself or aristocraties said an unexamined life is not worth living.

the fundamental pattern of knowing what I'm really made of and made for and learning what are the right questions to ask. And then to say, okay, this is what I am like a gardener with a seed going, what are there for the right conditions for that seed to thrive? And I began to cultivate the inner and outer conditions that were a match to the pattern that I was discovering within me. And I went from broke

John Jantsch (03:36.999)

Mm.

you

Derek (03:43.385)

broken, literally suicidal in a one-room apartment, living on macaroni and cheese, no kidding, got very good at mac and cheese though, I could make it in a lot of ways. Within the first 12 months, I ended up launching my life's work, growing my business into six and then multiple six figures, falling in love. My whole life began to emerge or unfold.

John Jantsch (03:49.095)

you

Derek (04:09.824)

And what I saw was that before that, I'd been a self-help person trying to improve myself, you know, for years and years and years. And I found that most of our efforts to fix change, heal and improve ourself is a form of resistance against what is naturally trying to emerge. We end up creating conditions that are oppositional to what is really in us. So that's in a nutshell or in an acorn shell.

John Jantsch (04:30.289)

Yes.

John Jantsch (04:38.009)

You

Derek (04:39.128)

basically where the idea of emergence, I read a book on it called Emergence.

John Jantsch (04:41.223)

So we're all just waiting around for the right squirrel to bury us in the dirt? that it? That's right.

Derek (04:46.698)

Exactly. Squirrels are farmers of the forest, right? And they luckily don't have good memory because they forget about 80 % of where they buried it or something. And then we get oak trees as a result. Exactly.

John Jantsch (04:57.511)

So I've had a lot of guests on here, obviously. AI is a topic of certainly the last 18 months or so. And it's typically about tools and tactics. What's the different argument you are making when it comes to AI?

Derek (05:03.192)

for sure. Yes.

Derek (05:07.682)

Yes.

Derek (05:11.724)

Yeah, I mean, obviously I think it's an important thing. We should learn AI. should master the tools. You should know how to use them. Just like you can use internet and use a phone because you won't be replaced immediately by AI. You'll be replaced by somebody who's really good at it. And, but you are going to be replaced one way or the other. So you want to make sure you replace yourself with AI rather than being replaced by it. But basically the approach is, you know, I've spent 25 years, I started off in tech. I was a computer nerd. I built programs.

John Jantsch (05:24.58)

Mm-hmm.

Derek (05:41.357)

I watched war games. thought it was a great idea to build a program to hack into the government and start global thermonuclear war. Don't ask me why. And so I was, and then I got into the brain and was going to be a neuroscientist. And then I had this opening spiritually, whatever you want to call it near death. And I became more interested in consciousness and the deeper dimensions of us. But what I saw is that I've been practicing the inner technologies and

that we have to understand that AI is an expression and a prosthetic of our capacity for intelligence. And from the Tower of Babel to Chatch-EPT, we're still just building these outer tools. And that's OK. But with every new technology, we outsource a little bit of ourselves. And so on the one level, the very real danger, and it's already happening. MIT has studies about this.

John Jantsch (06:30.8)

Mm-hmm.

Derek (06:38.094)

that we're outsourcing the thing that makes us us, the ability to think, to think for ourself, to think deeply, the ability to create, to communicate, to connect, et cetera. And as you outsource something, if you study the technology history, you atrophy that capacity. Exactly, exactly. I don't even remember where I am right now. It's only been a few minutes. No, and so I don't have my GPS to see where I'm going.

John Jantsch (06:55.514)

Can't remember my phone number.

you

Derek (07:05.302)

And so in like GPS, our spatial cognition, our mapping capacity, all these things, and it's important to understand that cognition is not just linear, it's layered. And so as one cognitive ability starts to collapse or atrophy, there's a cascading effect. so we see this over, and I talk about this in my book, kind of the history of industrial revolutions and the unfoldment of technology.

and the outsourcing and where we're heading in a trajectory is to become like the characters in the movie WALL-E that are basically these slabs on a conveyor belt staring at screens with no more agency and no more even concern with what's happening outside in the world. That's not science fiction. There's already a lot of people sitting in their basement just like those characters. And it's especially dangerous with men who need to have

John Jantsch (07:51.441)

Yeah.

Derek (08:02.121)

utility and usefulness and if they don't, they become self-destructive or destructive in the world and that's also happening now. And the second big piece is it will do everything a human can do better, faster, cheaper. And so the big existential question of our times has to be if that's the case, what's a human for? And there is an answer to that, and we'll talk about.

John Jantsch (08:28.603)

Well, you do lay out some ways that we need to evolve or that you suggest we need to evolve. So for the person that's like, yeah, well, my job is my boss tells me I got to go in and get this work done. Here's the tools I use. it's an occupational hazard, right, that I'm doing this. So what are some of the ways that you teach people to counteract that?

Derek (08:33.315)

Yes.

Derek (08:52.451)

Yeah, when you say counteract that, you mean use the AI tools? And you're basically training the AI.

John Jantsch (08:55.993)

Yeah, just the fact that I'm there on front of that computer screen all day long using these tools, you know, because that's my job. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Derek (09:00.951)

All that, right. That you're becoming like a WALL-E character potentially. Well, yeah, you know, just using the tools, the danger again, yes, we're using these tools and the danger with AI first and foremost is you have to make sure you use the tool to become a better version of yourself. Not like when we started to use power tool, you know, like the plow and all these different things or the automobile.

They got us somewhere faster. They made us more productive, but we didn't have to walk anymore. We didn't have to use our muscles anymore. And you can study the increase of disease by the fact that we don't have to move anymore. so, so we had to build other industries like gyms and exercise and running clubs to do the things. And that's okay. But as we start to outsource our cognition of these things, we just have to make sure, first of all, we are

John Jantsch (09:36.261)

Yeah. All right.

Derek (10:00.483)

doing hard and challenging things on a regular daily basis, because you were evolved and adapted to be chased by tigers and to chase wooly mammoths. And if you're not chasing and being chased a little bit every day, you're going to get fat and sick and cognitively decline much faster. But the great news is you can use AI to strengthen you. You can, and I talk about that with each evolution. I mean, the first evolution is AI is going to think for you.

think for yourself. So we have to deepen our ability. Right now, this is already happening with kids, happening with students. They're hitting a button, they're producing an essay, and over a semester their cognition is falling off a cliff. And already kids cannot read handwriting. They're losing that cognitive ability, let alone do it. So we have to make sure, and you can, and I show people how, to use it to know yourself better.

to use it to become a better writer, a better communicator, a better creator, a better and a deeper thinker. And again, thinking is what got us out of the trees on the savanna and up into the stars. And if we keep giving it to AI, there will come a day not too far in the future, we literally won't have the ability and we will be forced to bow before our AI overlord. That's not a science fiction trope.

So we have to use it to think deeply. If you're writing a paper or doing research, do the first amount yourself. Write the first draft. Make your head hurt a little bit every day thinking as an example. There's other examples, because it's also showing up in communication. Write that first draft of the email. Really try to communicate with that person. Have a real conversation with a human being every day.

You know, these are skills that aren't just nice to have. You know, they call them soft skills, but they're really very hard. But these kinds of skills also will make you more human, more creative, more intuitive, more alive, and it will make you irreplaceable. Because your lived wisdom, your lived experience, your internal technology, that's the one thing AI can't do.

John Jantsch (12:14.801)

Right.

Derek (12:24.727)

AI will do everything else. But if you can embed that in your work, your words, your world, now you become valuable. The moat of the future is an authentic human being. Everything else will be commoditized.

John Jantsch (12:39.953)

Well, I believe that, and I've kind of made the case for saying, think the people that are thriving in this right now are people that came from more liberal arts backgrounds instead of like a technical training to do a thing because taste and discernment I think are going to be what's left. Yeah.

Derek (12:49.903)

Correct. Correct. Correct.

Correct. Bingo, bingo, bingo, bingo. Yeah. Taste and discernment and everybody has it. They just haven't necessarily developed it. And you know, you have a lived experience. Your greatest wisdom will come from your greatest wounds. Your deepest purpose will come from all the pain and the problems you've worked through. And it builds a story and it builds a perspective that only you have, which creates taste, which creates, you know, real embodied wisdom and

John Jantsch (13:04.444)

Yeah, yeah.

Derek (13:24.685)

That is the new Prada and the new Gucci of the brave new world. Because again, AI will do everything that, you know, we're going to see more businesses started than ever before in history until business loses all meaning. We're going to see more books published, more songs produced, more websites, more apps until it's a tsunami that makes everybody want to tune out and look away and become apathetic. But then there'll be those individuals

who get to know themselves, excavate and harvest the wisdom of their life, have real taste, real point of view, real wisdom, and then use AI to scale wisdom, to scale authentic taste, to scale a singular perspective, to actually scale and magnify an algorithm only they have.

Those are the individuals that are going to become a signal in the noise.

John Jantsch (14:25.095)

So let's talk a little bit. So the emergence model says the answer is already in you, or maybe is. How does a business owner who's listening to this and maybe stuck at a revenue plateau, I mean, how did they apply that idea?

Derek (14:38.317)

Yeah, well, you know, there's different reasons why you're stuck at a revenue plateau. Some, mean, you are the biggest bottleneck usually, but sometimes depending on the business, there's, there's just different things. What got us to where we are, isn't going to, at a certain point, isn't going to get us to the next level. What got you to a hundred thousand won't get you to a million, won't get you to five, won't get you to 10 or 15, et cetera, et cetera, depending. And that's the same thing even in not just business, but I know this is business, but you know, you all have relationships too.

What got you to the first year in your relationship is not going to get you to your five, et cetera. It's something about you that has to change a new model, a new paradigm, somewhere where you have to either delegate or outsource or dig deeper. And, you know, the biggest challenge with, with businesses and it's going to be that now is, you know, it's the Kodak experience, the blockbuster experience, the businesses that were in denial, that we're holding onto an old model.

John Jantsch (15:34.459)

Mm-hmm.

Derek (15:36.515)

because it worked and it was still working up to the moment it wasn't. And so we have to be willing to create, creative destruction on ourselves, but not just on our business, but really, you know, this is, this is what could be one of the, it's the biggest existential crisis we're going to face, but it's also, I think one of the greatest opportunities to become the people we're meant to be and to have a whole new Renaissance. So you have to, again, understand that

John Jantsch (15:39.717)

Yes.

Derek (16:02.575)

There's a guy that just launched, started a, just built a billion dollar business. He didn't know anything about the business he built. He used AI and he built a team of agents, but he had a perspective and he tapped into a current zeitgeist. So he had a bit of wisdom and intelligence to identify that, which is what a great entrepreneurial creative mind does. And then he was able to scale it and build a billion dollar business. I think he just hired his brother cause he was getting lonely.

So they're gonna see a lot of the potential for that. But that required somebody to have a couple things that were human, which is a perspective, a bit of intuition, a lot of courage, some grit, the willingness to work hard. And the problem is once you build something, especially nowadays, again, that's gonna be completely competed away, that particular margin.

John Jantsch (16:56.977)

Yeah, right.

Derek (16:58.543)

The worst thing he ever did was have a New York Times article told about him because everybody's now aiming their arrows at him. what's that?

John Jantsch (17:06.503)

Is that 11 Labs, I'm guessing? Is that the company called 11 Labs? Is that who it was? Oh, okay. Yeah. Oh, okay.

Derek (17:12.067)

No, 11 Labs is something else. I think that's got more than one person. This was all about Ozempic and stuff. He just sold Ozempic, but he's not a doctor. He just was a middleman, built a billion dollar business. I think he did it in like a year. But so there's a lot of opportunity if you're creative and entrepreneurial and you're willing to trust your taste, your intuition and perspective. And of course AI can help you there. But when you understand, just follow the logic that

John Jantsch (17:20.401)

Yeah. Funny.

Derek (17:40.021)

Everything is going to be commodified because AI is just units of cognition and intelligence and it can do everything a human can do. And with embodied humanoids, it'll include the physical. You just have to keep going down the stack or up the stack or whatever and ask, well, what's left? And you want to go where the puck's going, not where it already is. And, and like I said, you're going to, you're going to, unless you have the chips.

or the capex, the money, or the energy, the only thing that's left is the humanity of it all. And if you're a company or a person, the most authentic, unique, bold, willingness to be and be creative and intuitive and also be very flexible, know, like all of those things that are natural state as children and as people until we calcify around something.

John Jantsch (18:10.417)

Mm-hmm.

Derek (18:38.369)

or a business, if it has a founder energy, keeps evolving and then it gets, it loses that and then it calcifies. So we have to get back to that and that will become again, the new moat is to be that flexible.

John Jantsch (18:51.911)

So for a lot of folks, business owners, particularly, who feel like, I'm running as fast as I can to keep up with the AI race, right? So what's the first kind of inner shift that you'd encourage them to make instead?

Derek (19:00.227)

Which is the wrong race.

Derek (19:06.179)

Yeah, again, I understand you want to learn the tools. You want to try to become as AI native as you possibly can as fast as you can, because if you don't, you will be competed out of existence. And you may have a moat for now and some things, the moats will last longer because of regulations and different things like that. And just, you might have a really good brand. And so you'll have loyalty up to a point until they can get the same thing for half the cost or less. So you have some time, but, but, but again, what's you got to think about?

Community, real humanity, real authenticity. Yes, people want stuff cheaper and faster and better. There's no doubt about it. Amazon built Amazon over that. But ultimately we have, you have to ask, what is it about me or the thing I do that is truly irreplaceable? And you, and you have to start to really be looking at, and what's interesting is you'll find

The way you built your business in the beginning often had a lot more for most, a lot, a lot more of that humanity in it, a lot more of that touch. And we're going to have to, it's like what I call a handcrafted humanity. We have to return to that. What people, what's going to be a differentiator. It's why like on YouTube, the people that are the most successful now are the live streamers because it's live.

John Jantsch (20:13.927)

Thanks

John Jantsch (20:33.307)

Mm-hmm.

Derek (20:33.443)

because it's in depth, because people feel like they can trust you, they know you versus all of the AI slop and the highly polished and produced stuff. So something that feels real and authentic and raw and live is going to win above all the polished stuff over and over and over again. So this is the kind of thing we have to start thinking about. Again, if you look back to your roots,

A lot of the ways you lived and the things you valued and the things you did are what made you successful. Then you started building a machine and it became all about scaling the machine instead of scaling the original core and heart of why you were doing it in the first place. Get back to the story. Get back to the humanity. Get back to the community. Get back to real connection. That's going to be most fundamental.

John Jantsch (21:27.203)

Awesome. Well, Derek, I appreciate you taking a few moments to drop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you and find out more about your work?

Derek (21:34.275)

Yeah, I mean, they can certainly get my book, obviously on Amazon or wherever books are sold or any of the books, whole new human. They can also go to Derek Rydell, legendary life on YouTube, lots and lots of videos or my website, Derek Rydell D E R E K R Y D A L L. And there's lots of free trainings and support. And then there's my podcast emergence, millions of downloads there. And there's, there's more of this deep dive conversation for sure.

John Jantsch (22:01.287)

Awesome. Great. Again, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Derek (22:06.839)

Likewise, John, thank you so much. been a pleasure.

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John Jantsch (00:02.19)

So what if every time you hired too fast, launched a new channel or added a service line, you were making a bet that your business actually wasn't prepared to win. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jance and my guest today is Mark Roberge. He's the co-founder of Stage Two Capital, founding chief revenue officer at HubSpot and the author of a book we're going to talk about today, The Science of Scaling.

Mark helped grow HubSpot from zero to IPO and then brought what he had learned into Harvard Business School where he taught founders how to grow without blowing up what they built. His framework gives business owners a way to use evidence rather than instinct or outside pressure to decide when they've truly earned the right to scale. So Mark, welcome to the show.

Mark Roberge (00:53.259)

Thanks, John. That's not my copy and I love it. Seriously, I love how you put it.

John Jantsch (00:59.105)

Awesome. good. Well, you know, we were talking before we got started, you and I met some 20 years ago when HubSpot was a nascent business. think maybe the first conference there were 500 people, something of that neighborhood.

Mark Roberge (01:04.916)

Yeah.

Mark Roberge (01:11.393)

Yeah, I was like in a Marriott in Cambridge. I have like, I remember specifically a couple of things about you. I think you were the most famous one of our early partners. I think I remember my last in-person chat with you was in some steakhouse in like South Boston or something. Cause I remember two people came up to you and asked for your autograph and you were like super humble about it. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is crazy.

John Jantsch (01:21.271)

Ha ha ha!

John Jantsch (01:27.438)

You

John Jantsch (01:35.288)

Well, I'm glad I wasn't a jerk. That's for sure. Awesome. Well, let's get into your book a little bit. So I mentioned HubSpot, Harvard, now you back companies as a VC. Did something you learned or showed up across all three of those roles kind of make you say, I need to write this book?

Mark Roberge (01:37.365)

Hahaha

Mark Roberge (01:54.207)

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's kind of funny that we can unpack as much as you want, but in reflecting the last 20 years of my life professionally, I've given up on having a plan because I never intended to go into sales. I never applied for HubSpot. I never applied or intended to be a professor at Harvard. I never intended to start a venture capital firm.

And I never intended to write either the sales acceleration formula 12 years ago or the scientist's killing last year. These were all things that like people were like, would you be willing to do this? So they did, they do just like show up and the way that this one, as both books unfolded was a, like you, I am blessed with the opportunity to do a number of keynotes every year. and I, for the big ones like saster, I tended to try to do something fairly original for the year.

So I've, you every year I do something original. So I've given like 20 to 25 brand new speeches over the last decade. And this one was just like a pattern I saw after like eight years of being out of HubSpot as an independent board member, as a professor, as an advisor, as an investor, in why companies, the few that went IPO and billion dollar valuations versus the ones that went bankrupt was just this.

really non-strategic, non-rigorous perspective on when to scale and how fast. And half do it too early, too fast. Half of them wait too long and go too slow. It's more about going the optimal time. I started speaking about it and I'm like, it's ridiculous how many classes and rigorous frameworks we have on accounting for and accruing revenue, but not on scaling revenue. And it just went viral and kept speaking about it, kept writing about it. And then Stanford was like, hey, can you write this up?

And here we have it.

John Jantsch (03:47.128)

So the term, you kind of alluded to it, but I'll say it directly, earn the right to scale. It does a lot of work in your framework and your talk. So what does a business owner actually have to prove or do to prove that's true? Like, when do they know I have the right to scale?

Mark Roberge (04:04.286)

Yeah, it's kind of interesting how it unfolds right now. I I've done this with like tractor companies in Brazil and pharmaceutical companies in Japan, but mostly with software companies in Silicon Valley. And it's kind of funny how it's decided. Like the decision on when to scale is usually when someone hands you a fat check, which doesn't sound that strategic.

And so I try to unpack it as two steps that are sequential. One is product market fit and the other is go to market fit. And usually you're like product market fit, like duh, product market fit, duh. But like, what is product market fit? You know, I think a lot of people will say I'm ready to scale when I have product market fit, which I think is a great answer. But then when I ask them what product market fit is,

I get a lot of different answers, most of which are about a certain revenue number, a certain customer number, a certain number of inbound leads. And then I'm like, well, okay, cool. Let's say that you have 200 customers or like 500 inbound leads and everyone's buying, but like people stop using the product. Do you have product market fit? And they're like, okay, no, but

I'll just start, I'll just listen to them and build the product to appease their needs. And I'll be like, okay, well, how will you know when you've achieved it? And they'll be like, when they keep using the product and don't churn. And I'm like, exactly. So like that, that's like the first kind of like pivot mentally for folks is I encourage you to define product market fit, not as a revenue acquisition.

metric, but as a revenue and customer retention metric. And the book talks about how to extract that long-term lagging indicator back to something that you can evaluate in the first week of a customer being with you. Okay, so that's step one, product market fit. And then if you think about it, once you've achieved product market fit, all that means is that when you sign up 10 more customers, they're gonna see value that you promised and stick around.

John Jantsch (06:00.866)

Yes.

Mark Roberge (06:25.372)

It doesn't mean that you've proven that you can acquire and serve them profitably. And that's what go-to-market fit is. And it's measured by UNEconomics. So that's really the, probably the simplest way to describe the work is these two sequences of product market fit and go-to-market fit as measured by retention in the first one and positive UNEconomics in the second.

John Jantsch (06:29.506)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (06:46.018)

Well, since we're defining terms, we probably better step back because I bet you if I asked 100 people, 10 people, 100 people sounds like too much work. If I asked 10 people what the word scale means, we'd probably get a bunch of definitions, more leads, more staff, more tools, but how do you define it?

Mark Roberge (06:59.21)

Sure. Sure.

Mark Roberge (07:07.528)

Yeah. So once you are ready to scale the way and that to your point, yeah, that can mean a lot of things. It could mean how do we scale our culture? How do we scale our engineering team? How do we scale our office space? Blah, blah. First off, I'm, I should be more clear that I'm talking about scaling the revenue. And to your point, scaling revenue, the inputs to that vary quite a bit by business by business. if you're a consumer business, you may just have to spend more on marketing. Something that you know a lot about Joan. if you're a B2B.

John Jantsch (07:15.094)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (07:21.92)

Okay.

Mark Roberge (07:37.513)

sometimes you have to scale fancy outside salespeople if you're selling like rockets to governments. And sometimes you do it through PLG. And again, it's more of like a marketing exercise. So I really talk about scaling the revenue and the principles, apply, whether you're doing it through pure marketing or through, through sales head count. let's for simplicity, let's just talk about scaling through sales head count and the

Big pothole that people make there is even if they follow the guidance of like, let's achieve product market fit first and then go to market fit, and it could take a day, it could take a week, it could take a month, it could take a year, whatever, and now we're ready to scale, they raise money and then they have a target for the year and they hire like 27 reps the next week.

even though they only have one on the team today. And there's just no appreciation of the new capabilities that are needed to hire and onboard and manage 27 reps. Like just like, let's take one piece of it, which is let's kind of pontificate that the hiring quality might be correlated to the number of interview screens we do, qualified interview screens to the hire. If I do,

two interview screens and make a hire, I'm probably not gonna make as good of a hire as if I did 10 interview screens and make a hire. So if we're trying to do 10 and we're making 27 hires, that's 270 qualified interview screens. Where are we getting those candidates? Who's doing the interviews? Nevermind, where's the demand gen gonna come from? Who's gonna ramp them? What about the managers? It's just too driven from a Google Sheet or Excel, and so the simple pivot philosophically is,

Don't think about it as putting the annual plan together and hiring all those reps on January 2nd. Think about it as establishing a hiring pace every month or every quarter. 10 reps a month, boom, boom, boom. As opposed to like 37 at the beginning of the year.

John Jantsch (09:51.791)

So there's all kinds of horror stories of companies that blew up because they grew too fast. Would you say that they scaled too fast or they didn't scale fast enough?

Mark Roberge (09:57.47)

Yes.

Mark Roberge (10:04.928)

Both. have, like I said, it's about half and half. I mean, I would say like the classic examples out there, like an old school one is Groupon, which I think if you look at it from this lens, never really had product market fit. they just like, the promise was like, if you're a Chinese restaurant and give these coupons away, you'll get new customers, but it was really just the existing customers. And then maybe like WeWork never really had go-to-market fit. And that was pretty famously documented story.

John Jantsch (10:21.486)

There's Buzz. There's Buzz.

Mark Roberge (10:35.36)

The ones that didn't scale fast enough, we just don't know, right? Cause they're like, I can name some in our portfolio or people I've worked with over the years, but the reason why we don't know them is cause they just sat there and they were like, they had something, but the co-founders just like wanted to just go too slow and continue to do founder selling and wanted to run a profitable business when it needed to be a blitz scale business. And there's nothing wrong with running a profitable business. just, if you're trying to win in the AI customer support,

John Jantsch (10:38.702)

Yeah, yeah.

Mark Roberge (11:05.258)

category today, you can't be profitable right now. Like there's just certain blitz scale risk that you have in your category that needs to dictate how fast or slow you go.

John Jantsch (11:06.638)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:16.056)

So one of the key elements in science of scaling is evidence over instinct. So if I don't have a giant data team, and I know AI is actually solving some of this right now, but what does evidence actually look like at a startup or smaller business level?

Mark Roberge (11:29.768)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Mark Roberge (11:40.117)

Yeah, I mean, you don't, you definitely don't need like a sophisticated data science team. You don't even need AI agents doing this stuff. Let me just give you like a really simple example. So we talked about product market fit is where I'm, I'm proposing to everyone that it's more about customer value and retention as opposed to customer acquisition. And obviously you need to acquire customers to eventually make them valuable. So it's an input to it.

John Jantsch (11:48.526)

Okay, all right.

Mark Roberge (12:08.34)

The retention is a lagging indicator. So we needed to find a leading indicator of retention. We can't wait a year to know if we have product market fit. I need to know like the week after I acquired the customer or the month after. And so what the book and the work I've been doing with companies for last decade is to help them define their leading indicator of retention. What is it that we can observe in the first month of a customer's experience with you, your product, your service, whatever.

that if we see that, they'll be with you forever. And if we don't, they'll probably churn. And so like, I frame it as P percent of customers do e-event every tee time. Okay, so that sounds like the programmers on the audience are like loving this right now. The history majors are like totally lost, right? So like, just to bring that to life, Slack, 80 % of customers send 2000 team messages every month. HubSpot, 80 % of customers use five or more features in the platform every month, right?

John Jantsch (12:53.55)

You

Mark Roberge (13:08.564)

These are things that can be measured in the first month to give us insight. If we're at 80%, we probably have product market fit. If we have 10%, we definitely don't. I don't need a data scientist to evaluate that. Okay, so these are not overly complicated, like PhD math type things.

John Jantsch (13:20.174)

So.

John Jantsch (13:29.922)

One of the things I've been preaching for 20 years is that when we talk about the customer journey, that retention and advocacy and all the things that come after somebody becomes a customer are part of the customer journey or should be part of the customer journey. And for so many people, it's let's get a customer. And I think what you're really certainly hammering home here is this idea that you're not going to scale without retention and without

Mark Roberge (13:44.234)

Yes!

John Jantsch (13:59.382)

know, referrals or whatever you call it. Yeah.

Mark Roberge (14:01.984)

Spot on. mean, when I hear people like you say this, the conviction continues to escalate, right? Because it's like, another way to say what John is saying here is, let's just talk really tactically. Do not let the dashboards and sales funnels in your CRM end at closed one. That is like literally step four of seven, right? Like let's just like really step back, like very, very like basic, like.

John Jantsch (14:20.468)

Yeah.

Mark Roberge (14:31.654)

know, opportunity stage one is, you know, business, like discovery call and like business and you know, metrics definition. Step two is product validation, demo, blah, blah. Step three is closed one. Step four is set up. Step five is regular engagement. Step six is retention. That's the funnel.

John Jantsch (14:52.558)

He

John Jantsch (14:59.438)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually refer to it, have been referring to it as the hourglass, you know, with the idea being that, the funnel, right, but then it goes back out again. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Roberge (15:06.26)

Totally. And expands. Exactly, because you expand more and like lot of people like winning by design with Jaco and like that's just a great way, the bow tie. A lot of people like it's a really good way to think about it because that usage, it represents that the usage and should grow.

John Jantsch (15:16.589)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:23.576)

So you were at Harvard and name a dozen schools, Stanford, that a lot of people go to those because they've got a big idea or they wanna have a big idea. They wanna turn out the next Google. I'm sure you encountered many founders or would be founders in those environments. What would you like if you were, I'm sure you did this in your class environment.

tell them they're gonna get wrong or how would you coach them of how you think they're thinking about it incorrectly?

Mark Roberge (15:58.009)

I mean, there's a lot to that. I think we covered a lot of them related to the work in terms of like, you know, being more precise around having the business fundamentals in place to be prepared to scale and how you go about scaling. I would say,

I guess I'll add two more to it that come up a lot, one that's related to revenue development to some degree and one that it really isn't. The one I'll mention is having a plan for a moat. And I would say like, when I ask people what their long-term defensibility will be, they often tell me about a feature.

John Jantsch (16:31.992)

Yes.

Mark Roberge (16:45.468)

And when I asked them if they are correct and they start crushing it and start winning, and then the competition realizes it, how long will it take them for them to build that feature? And they say six months. And I say, that's not long-term defensibility. So, so you really have to like, you don't have to prove it on day one. Cause oftentimes it might take something that you have to kind of take one of those design big start small approaches to it.

John Jantsch (17:02.58)

Hehehehe

Mark Roberge (17:14.464)

but you really need to have a vision around if you are right, there will be lots of copycats and the incumbents will try to take you out and you need to make sure that you win there. The other one, unless you want to talk about that, John, I have one more that I can throw out that's pretty popular. Yeah, yeah, the other one that's interesting, I think it was a study done at London School of Economics where they looked at like, I don't know, 5,000 seed funded businesses like 15 years ago and.

John Jantsch (17:22.637)

Yeah.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:31.17)

Yeah, yeah, go for it.

Mark Roberge (17:43.282)

and tried to evaluate the commonalities for those that like exited at, you know, very strong exit. The number one correlation was the founder's ability to up level the executive team around them as they went through the various phases of growth. And it's like, it's so pronounced in my journey with some of these folks. It's like, it's so hard to do too. Like it's so hard for like a founder to like stare someone in the eyes who've been there in the trenches with them from day one for three years.

and be able to communicate that they are over their head and that the business needs someone ready for the next stage. How you deliver that, how you recognize it, how you have the guts to say it, how you like move through that and still feel like a human and still feel like that person has been made whole. Like that's such a difficult skill to build, but that there's so much correlation with successful founders and CEOs and in

developing and executing that skill.

John Jantsch (18:43.372)

Well, and let's take it up one level. Many times the business outgrows the founder, right? So they may be having that conversation with themselves, right? Yeah.

Mark Roberge (18:48.714)

Sure. It's very rare that they're there. Totally. Yeah. And that lots of times the board has to manage that. think we, we went from an, like a culture or like a tactic around that. would say in the eighties and nineties when venture capital was much smaller and startups were, it just, was a much smaller portion of the economy. VCs were notorious for investing in these young technicians and then

fire in them. And I think in the early 2000s, venture took a different approach. They didn't want to get a reputation for firing CEOs. So they did what I call the Sheryl Sandberg, which is to like bring in the, the operator, but keep the CEO, which is good. think that's great. think a lot of times that CEO can sort of graduate up to being a

face to the organization, a driver of the culture, a person to be in key meetings with customers, to be on the road, but like don't have to be or nor qualified to be like the day-to-day operators, hence like today's COO president role. So, but yeah, sometimes founders, they're like not willing to let go. And I have to be like, I have to be like, do you even understand that you have graduated to an era and scale that every CEO

John Jantsch (20:00.782)

Yes, yes.

Mark Roberge (20:15.519)

founder dreams of, we're basically offering to pay for someone to do all the work that you hate and have you just do the work you love, which is product vision, talking to customers and talking to the market. So it's like, it takes a little reframing, you know.

John Jantsch (20:17.56)

Yeah, that's right.

John Jantsch (20:23.598)

You

John Jantsch (20:33.16)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you, I think your PR people mentioned this, they're donating the proceeds to the book to McLean Hospital for Mental Health Research. Is there an intentional connection of the subject of scaling to mental health?

Mark Roberge (20:42.014)

Yeah.

Mark Roberge (20:48.113)

my gosh. Huge. Well, not so much. It's very light. It's more of an intentional connection to the author. and it's just something as you've experienced, John, it like you get up, you get up in the morning and do these things three times more aggressively when you have a cause like this around you. And there's two personal reasons and thank you for providing a platform to talk about them. The first one is mental health has played an enormous piece in my own life.

John Jantsch (20:55.992)

Yeah.

Mark Roberge (21:18.259)

I have been a caregiver, a direct caregiver to many loved ones and I've been a patient. And I can stand here and say this because I've been blessed with certain resume wins that society values and I can be braver than most. And I'm sure by saying that some people may be hesitant to work with me. And I just think we need to fight that stigma more. Like we've come a long way in a generation, but

Even to this day, I think a lot of people will be interviewing a candidate and find out they survived cancer 10 years ago and it will elevate their perception of them versus if they found out that they overcame a serious mental illness, they may have some concern and both are just a disease. They're often genetic. So that's part of the personal driver. And the second one is I think in this moment in tech, there's a hundred times more capital talent.

John Jantsch (22:02.03)

Yes.

John Jantsch (22:07.308)

Yes.

Mark Roberge (22:17.009)

an effort going into building AI and next to nothing in helping society adapt to the world that about to become. And I think we as technicians need to change that. We can't delegate this to Washington or economists. They're just not close enough to it. And we just need to like really diversify our efforts away from just building and profiting toward

John Jantsch (22:25.347)

Yes.

Mark Roberge (22:44.265)

helping society adapt to this new world. like with every tech revolution, we ended up better as a society, but there are scars along the way. It happened with the internet. They're about to be really bad with AI if we don't do anything. So I think we all need to find a little thing to do. And right now that's my little thing to do.

John Jantsch (22:51.734)

Yes.

John Jantsch (22:59.914)

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Any way you'd invite people to connect with you, find out more about your work as well as your latest book.

Mark Roberge (23:11.315)

Yeah, I'm all over. mean, LinkedIn is probably where I'm most at. I'm trying to hang out on TikTok more, John, just to like, because I need to like talk to these 22 year old founders as well, which is awesome. So I'm trying to find where they are. But I'm mostly on LinkedIn if folks want to go on there and collaborate.

John Jantsch (23:25.55)

Well again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll run into you someday in a steakhouse in South Boston. I don't know how much that'll be worth to you, if you got a pen, I'll do it. All right. Thanks, Mark.

Mark Roberge (23:32.305)

I'd love it and maybe I'll ask for your autograph, John.

Mark Roberge (23:42.578)

All right, it's great to see you. Thank you.

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John Jantsch (00:01.668)

So what if the reason so many leaders stay stuck is not that they're not working hard enough, but that they keep getting very good at solving the wrong problems. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Kevin D. St. Clergy. He's an entrepreneur, speaker, mentor, and author of Beyond Blind Blaming. Stop solving the wrong problems and instantly unlock results. After building and exiting his own company,

Kevin's focus is work on helping entrepreneurs and leaders uncover the hidden assumptions, mindset blocks, and false diagnoses that keep them stuck. So, Kevin, welcome to the show.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (00:42.382)

Thanks, John. Appreciate you having me.

John Jantsch (00:44.122)

So the term, I want to start with, as I often do, words out of the title, the term blind blaming is, doing a lot of work here. How would you define it? You know, I'm imagining one of my business owners listening to this, sitting at a stoplight right now, wondering why their numbers are flat. So for them, how would you define the term blind blaming?

Kevin D. St.Clergy (01:08.834)

Now I'll start with the story. It's the origin story that everybody likes. I'll be quick. But when I was 10 years old, I was a phenomenal baseball player at a batting average of five 50. And for those of you listening, five 50 is epic. It's great. and people noticed I was going to bat every other time I went to bat Babe Ruth and his hayday three 94, just to give you an example.

so my dad and I went to work. worked with me on my mindset. I mean, I was young, but I love baseball and, we had a buddy who was actually used to coach for the Dodgers who was helping me with my swing in the off season. We practiced every day. And the next season I stood up and I was ready, but something was different because I started swinging and missing. In fact, I missed every time I went to bat for the entire next season. I literally went from here to zero and you probably guess what I heard from the stands. Come on, kid, keep your head in the game, play to win this time. And then can probably really imagine what my dad would give me lectures on on the way home.

John Jantsch (01:50.298)

Yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (01:56.552)

about how bad my attitude was and that's the biggest problem who by the way still thinks that's what it was back then even though he's read the book. But what we found was two weeks after I quit because I'd had enough of the abuse and eventually started blaming myself thinking I'm just not right for this game I quit baseball and I went to a fluke eye exam we figure out what the real problem was I just couldn't see the ball.

Doctor said, sorry, kids practically blind without glasses. And here's the real problem, the adults in my life for that two year stint never stopped blaming me for something that was completely out of my control. And that's what we call blind blaming. And I see it in business, I see it in relationships, I see it everywhere. We all go through it. So for people that are down on their business, they immediately start thinking of things like, well, it must be my marketing, which I know you've taught for years. And a lot of times it's not their marketing, they're just not answering the damn phone when people call.

John Jantsch (02:44.058)

Yeah. It's interesting how many times I've run into that, you know, that exact scenario. It's like, you know, we're just not getting enough leads and, we do call tracking and things like that. And we were like, yeah, you are. We've listened to the phone calls. You know, that's not really the issue, so how does, let's start there. Well, there's, mean, I can go a lot of directions, but since we went there, how like,

Kevin D. St.Clergy (02:56.929)

Yep.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:11.938)

If you're working with a client, you're working with a business and you can clearly see that they're blaming the wrong things for the results that you're bringing. mean, how do you circumvent that? How do you change direction with that? How do you help them recognize that they're looking at the wrong? And it's rampant. mean, perfectionism is an example of blind blaming, I think, a lot of times.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (03:31.766)

It's rampant. yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (03:36.812)

Yeah. Well, the book's broken into three sections on purpose. It's awareness. So I'm finding that once people start reading about blind blaming, and they're more aware of it, then it starts to make sense.

John Jantsch (03:42.883)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (03:46.383)

Yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (03:48.342)

Then we teach them the RCD method, which is how they get past blind blaming. It's very simple, but remember simple doesn't always mean easy, but it's simply reflect. RCD stands for reflect. Is there something else going on that I can't see? You've got to learn to ask yourself that question because if you keep solving the same problem over and over again and you're not getting any different results, that's where we lead to insanity. But that's what we go through as small business owners. And even when you get really big like we did with our agency, we had 450 clients with 900 locations, Sean. So I have plenty of scars of people like

I don't think your service is working. I'm really I'm showing 22 leads last month from your call tracking number Yeah, but we only scheduled two. I was like, well, that's not my fault That's blind blaming so But here's where I think people fall down because they'll get their team together and say what do you guys think it is? And they're all in that sphere of influence and everybody else says what must be marketing. It's certainly not us as salespeople It's got to be the marketing. I just don't have enough leads and the leads are generating their crap

So connect is the C stage. You have to connect with an outside source, a mentor, a coach. I like paid coaches. I've had one for 20 years. Just got a new one that's kind of up in the next level because I want to get the nine figures here pretty quick. So I've just needed a coach that's already there. And then I also have mastermind groups. Those are some of my favorite ways to learn. I know you've been part of them. I think you've led them in the past. And I think when you do that, these people can see what you can't see because they're outside of that sphere of influence. You're not tied down with your successes and your failures.

John Jantsch (05:11.29)

Yes, yes.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (05:12.181)

And finally, once you know what it is, this is where D comes in. You got to decide to do something different. In fact, it was pretty cool because.

I was a little worried about this in the chapter because it does use the F word and even Jack Canfield, he's only the second guy I read the book. He's like, man, I even love your effing part. And I'm like, my God, I just got Jack Canfield to say the F word on video, but it's MFD make an effing decision. Because once you know what it is, I see a lot of people are like, no, maybe not. Let's go back and review this again. Do something. And that's a great story. Cause when we came up with this, it was actually one of my clients. She was debating on whether to go with one or two loans to double her business. And she's like, Kevin, what do you think I should do? And I just told her straight up.

up, Kayla, I think you need to make an effing decision. But I didn't say effing. I've known her well enough. I helped her start a business seven years ago. And she's like, okay, okay, she comes back a month later. And I always like to start coaching calls off these days with what's going well. And she's like, Kevin, I'm MFDing all over the place. You changed my life. Even my husband's noticed and we're doing things. We got the loan. We bought the business. We've doubled the size. We're doing great. I'm like, MFD, what are you talking about? She's like, make an effing decision. What you told me to do on the last call. I'm doing it. And I was like, Kayla, do you mind if I use that in my book? Because I love that.

John Jantsch (06:16.378)

Hmm.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (06:18.018)

And that has turned out to be the biggest thing I was worried about has turned out to be the thing that people mentioned or remember the most. Cause they'll come up to my booth after a talk and say, man, I love the MFD part. You're right. I've got to make some decisions and make some mistakes.

John Jantsch (06:30.276)

So how you think about the entrepreneur, mean, there's more to get done in a day, every day, seemingly than they possibly can. So, you know, they get really wired for go, go, go, go. In some ways you're saying, wait a minute, slowing down is actually a more aggressive approach than, just constantly going at full tilt. How do you get people who recognize that, you know, that our part? Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (06:55.968)

I do a schedule audit and I see do they like for me 5 to 5 30 a.m. I get up early I didn't used to because I worked in a bar all through grad school but now I get up and from 5 to 5 30 is my quiet time I grab a cup of coffee I do not look at a screen and I just journal and try to come up with ideas and I can see it on their calendar when they're working six days a week and trying to see customers or patients whoever you're working with because they keep losing people and they don't give them some they don't give themselves time to think

John Jantsch (07:16.312)

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (07:24.78)

Right. How do you get them to do that? How do you get them to do that? That's... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (07:25.87)

And so I make them, well, I make them schedule the time. Just like yesterday, we had a client, I'm like, where's your admin time? He's like, well, I've got administrative assistant. I didn't mean for her, when are you working on your marketing? She's like, what do you mean? I'm like, wrong answer.

John Jantsch (07:39.226)

Yeah, yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (07:41.934)

So at the end of the call, we had her physically book these two Fridays in a row that she was gonna take four hours to work on this. And she's so excited, because then she's like, well, what do I do? So we had to actually lay out what she needs to do. So first you gotta schedule the time. What gets scheduled gets done. Then you need a personal assistant to protect you from yourself, John. This is like Christina Cann, who I think you interacted with, she booked this.

John Jantsch (07:57.988)

day.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (08:04.909)

Christina's constantly protective for myself because I say hey booker there. No, that's your time to work on marketing for us to keep the company going I'll find another space for that person So a lot of times I'll find entrepreneurs who are just GSD getting us done and they're not focusing on time for themselves nor do they have a personal assistant and that's usually one of the first hires that I have people do when they're a solopreneur

John Jantsch (08:27.268)

Yeah. And, know, for years I've, I actually just blocked that time out every week, that I'm going to do, you know, cause there's a lot of things that you actually, you can't get done between, you know, podcast calls, right? I mean, there's, need that three hour ramp, if you're going to do it. And so I've, I've just had that on my calendar and, know, the nice thing is you can't schedule over it. You know, other people can't schedule over it.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (08:29.357)

.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (08:41.355)

Right. Yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (08:51.757)

No, and I like, yeah, I agree. And I like having breaks. mean, Christina is really good about a 10 a.m. break from 10 to 10 30. That's my walk and my snack from 12 to one. I do take a lunch. I didn't used to take lunches. I worked through it. Just power through as a mistake. 30 minutes at three o'clock to three 30. And I usually wrap up my day between two and two and three o'clock these days because I start pretty early.

John Jantsch (09:06.967)

Yes.

John Jantsch (09:13.427)

Yeah, same here. So when you're working with a client, have you started to recognize specific patterns of language particularly that kind of tip you off that like, this one's in blind blaming mode?

Kevin D. St.Clergy (09:16.077)

.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (09:25.613)

Yeah, it's the stories they're telling themselves. And I'll give you a great example of somebody recently. She's like, I can't wait to work with you. She was really excited. It our first call. We had a great interview. And she's like, was like, what do you think your biggest challenge is? When we got to that point, she says, well, I'll never be as big as you, but my biggest problem is marketing. And I said, wait a minute, let's stop. Let's go back. It's not your marketing.

John Jantsch (09:27.45)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (09:43.988)

Hehehehehe

Kevin D. St.Clergy (09:50.036)

Why did you say you'll never be as big as me? She goes, because I just know it. I know I'm not going to be as big as you, you know, I'm like, okay, well, let's work on that. So we spent the first call working on mindset because our coaching program we called M3 mastery. It's mindset, margins, momentum. I just find if we build the business owner that builds the business, we've had a lot of success with that over the years. And a lot of times just giving them a way.

to dream bigger and think big makes a huge difference. We were at dinner a couple nights ago. I was on a big podcast, live podcast here in Austin with a bunch of people and one of the people was one of my customers and she had been invited too. And she's like, you know, before I met you, I just thought I'd be happy with just a million dollar a year business working, know, Monday through Friday, eight to five. And I never thought that I'd have a $3 million a year business working Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and taking Thursdays and Fridays completely off.

It wasn't until you taught me how to think bigger that made the big difference for me. So build the business owner that builds the business and start thinking big. I mean, that's why we're, you know, we had an eight figure exit. I want a hundred million dollar exit next. That's my next thing. So the bigger you think, the bigger you'll get.

John Jantsch (10:51.417)

if

John Jantsch (10:59.354)

So, let's go back to that marketing example. I totally agree with you. Walking that back to mindset certainly was the place to go. But we work with a lot of agencies and I mean, so I hear this story all the time. You deliver, results are still flat, everyone blames the agency. So you've probably heard that exact situation. How do you get people to walk that back? Because they're basically making that

Kevin D. St.Clergy (11:01.933)

you

Kevin D. St.Clergy (11:22.285)

.

John Jantsch (11:28.686)

decision, if you will, that blame based on what data they can see or what data they think they have and that data is we're not growing.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (11:32.066)

Yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (11:39.342)

Yeah, so they, I mean, we call it the three fatal falls of blind blaming. So the first one, we have these cognitive biases, John, that you're well aware of, because I've been following you for years, and you've helped me a lot over my career, so I could say thank you in person, by the way. But.

John Jantsch (11:51.799)

You

Kevin D. St.Clergy (11:53.838)

I think the first fatal flaw is there's this thing called availability bias. And these cognitive biases are there to help us make decisions quicker and do things better and faster, but they can be getting away and hinder our success as well. And the first one is called availability bias, which means the first thing that pops into an entrepreneur's head about what's wrong with their marketing, that's it. It's got to be their agency and the people that have agencies that are working with customers. Cause I had a marketing agency for 17 years. I know the scars. I've got the deep wounds. For those of you who do choose to read the book, you'll see those wounds in the, in the book with some of my

examples. But once they do that then the next fatal flaw comes into play where it's confirmation bias. They become a treasure hunter to prove themselves right and they start looking for data to back that up. Well I'm definitely slow. It was my slowest month ever and I wasn't slow before I hired you guys so it's your fault.

And so then finally, you're too busy looking at the wrong problem, you can't focus on the right solutions. So that's the third fatal flaw. So what we do though is, especially for like agencies, when working with agencies, I just share with them what we did when we changed our whole model from just providing digital marketing services to a business growth company and started including coaching, because I was getting so frustrated and so angry of generating leads and then them not converting those leads to appointments. And so we created Front Desk Academy.

Then I was getting really frustrated because we were putting the leads in front of them and then they weren't closing them. And of course it's still our fault. Couldn't be them, it's not their sales process, not another sales training. I had a recent customer and she said this online out loud to everyone that when I mentioned that we really need to work on your sales process, she started crying. So it was, I was like, I didn't want to make you cry. I said, no, it's not you, you're right, I need to fix this. So.

I think what agencies need to do is they need to pivot a little bit and they need to start looking at the results that they get and what it really does. Because people, don't think people want to sign up for more marketing. They don't want to spend money on marketing. What they want is to make more money, grow their business and have more of an impact.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (13:47.534)

And that's the change we made in 2018. When we became a business development company that provided digital marketing services, and no matter what they did with us, we would help them grow. Because let's face it, you've done this, John, some marketing works, some doesn't. Some digital marketing takes months to get going. But what we did is we developed a business assessment to help them identify holes in their bucket, and then we helped them fill it. So weekly, we were coaching them for the first eight to 10 weeks they were on board with us, where a lot of people got a return on their investment before we even started their marketing, before it got going.

John Jantsch (14:17.412)

Yes.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (14:17.665)

That's when we quadrupled the size of our company. We did really well. We weren't even looking to sell. Our broker came to us and said, look, I think your business is worth this. And we started laughing. And then he got that. So it was kind of a blessed day. Anyway, I hope that answers your question in a good way.

John Jantsch (14:21.924)

Yes.

John Jantsch (14:29.242)

Yeah, no, absolutely. That's really where we've been for years. mean, the only thing when people engage us, it's not to do their marketing, it's to do what we call strategy first, which is a very set engagement that has set deliverables that we work on their business objectives first. We work on the founder and finding where they're getting in the way. and I tell you from a marketing standpoint, it changes the whole relationship too.

in day one not seen as a vendor. We're seen as a trusted advisor and all the other stuff we want to recommend, they're like bring it on because you've changed the relationship.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (15:01.046)

Yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (15:09.279)

Yeah, and I love it. Yeah, because you've become a partner and when somebody comes in with a lower price, they're like, yeah, but I lose John and his team. That's what we learned. We just did it. The story is in my book as well. But yeah, I agree. And I love that you're doing that.

John Jantsch (15:13.433)

Yes.

John Jantsch (15:16.761)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:23.62)

So symptom fixing versus root cause thinking. How do you get people, most people are in symptom, you know, this hurts, you know, how do I fix it? How do you get people to start thinking way beyond the symptom to, you know, wellness, if you will, if we're going to use the analogy.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (15:41.174)

Yeah, so back to that. We teach them the process. We teach them how to move beyond blind blaming with making them aware that blind blaming exists and they're suffering from it. Then we take them through the RCD method, but a lot of times they don't really know how to dig a little deeper. So we've been really big on if we're working with coaches or agencies, helping them develop an assessment that does go deeper.

And then that's how we identify things. We have them take a small assessment that helps them step out of the box and take a look at the way they're doing things. For some reason, I mean, when I used to do it in person, it worked okay, but when they have them do the assessment and they see the results with the AI stuff we have today, it's made a huge difference. And they're like, man, I knew exactly when I went through this assessment what's really going on.

And now it just helps my coaching go a lot faster. Don't know why I'm not, I don't, it was just something that I learned to do at a conference and we started using it and then we started teaching our clients to do the same and they're seeing the same thing. So having an assessment that helps them step out of the box and look at the way they're doing things to identify some other things it can be is one of the first things. But a lot of times just if you're working with a good coach like yourself, who's got a lot of experience and you've seen the same mistakes that entrepreneurs make every other day when it comes to their marketing, we know.

Cause I love it when people tell me like, well, I definitely need to rebuild my website. And I always ask why. Look, I had a digital marketing. My company's job was to produce some doubt so that you would switch to us. But I always instructed our practice advisors as we called them, cause we were in the medical field to ask them how many leads a month before you switch and come to us, how many leads a month are you going? And you can probably guess what we got, John. What do you mean?

John Jantsch (17:16.922)

One, two, yeah. Yeah, well, that's true.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (17:18.253)

I have no idea. No, most of time it was like, I don't know. I just know I need to switch because my business is down. And then sometimes we wouldn't let people come on board. like, listen, no offense. I'd love to earn your business, but you're getting like 30 leads a month from your current marketing company. I don't think you have a problem with this. And we used to secret shop their clinics before we'd get on the phone with them. I like, listen, your problem is your front desk. In fact, you know, when we said how much are your hearing aids, she said they can be as much as $7,000, but you probably won't need those. Great script.

No, they would hang up and go away. And I said, guess who scored worse on these secret shopper calls? Do you think it was the front desk or the owner? The owner. They're the worst. So anyway, that's, that's some of the things that we do is help them step out of the box and take a look at other things.

John Jantsch (17:52.922)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:00.1)

So, I mean, you're in the personal coaching mindset space. So you probably quite naturally get, mean, some of your engagements probably get personal pretty fast. and I think, what I think is interesting about that and where there's, see a lot of resistance, particularly from service providers. It's like, I'm just here to do this, you know? but what I've seen is that I think what people are craving now, just what you said, they don't want.

more marketing stuff. They don't, you know, they don't want to basically go, I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've talked to somebody and they've had like five agencies and they've all done the same thing. You know, it's like you're hiring them to do the same thing. You know, what did you, what did you expect? And, and what I think people are craving today more than ever is transformation. Um, and I think that we have a real opportunity as service providers or whatever we want to call it to actually go so much deeper and help them evolve.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (18:39.021)

yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (18:42.519)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:58.552)

not just as a business, but as a person. And that's a space that I think is wide open, quite frankly, in the marketing world.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (19:05.229)

Yeah, I agree because we, as I said, we found that we in our big masterminds where we charge 25 and 50 grand a year. It's very interesting to me to go from a digital marketing company charge of $900 a month.

John Jantsch (19:15.63)

Yeah, right.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (19:17.549)

and having this, have you done for me today to 25 and 50 and then soon to be $100,000 level and have people go, I can't believe this, you changed my life. I can't wait for next year. Let's, they're re-upping. We have a 90 % up rate, re-up rate at the end of the year. It's fascinating to me because we changed the way we focus. We talked about that transformation and what's happened with other clients. So yeah, totally with you. And it's, it's just amazing to me. If we can get more agencies to focus on that transformation, John, uh, cause that's what we just trademarked heck out of this, but we call our program M3 Mastery from Trans

John Jantsch (19:34.852)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:39.46)

Peace.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (19:47.456)

transactional to transformational and that was my big lesson when we really focused on Getting some transformation in their business not just what we did or the service provide That would that made a huge difference and sometimes as you said We'd find that the owner has a health problem that when I am diagnosed for years Like just recently we had somebody who has a very large eight figure a year of business, but she was miserable I was like, long has it she been to the doctor? She's about 43. So she's getting up to you know in that age She's like, you know, I read your book and I've got an appointment

John Jantsch (19:49.38)

Nice.

John Jantsch (20:13.742)

Yeah, yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (20:16.981)

And so she came back and she's like, my God, my testosterone is low and I had no idea. It's been that way for years. My doctor never run the test. And once we got that fixed, she exploded. Her team culture completely changed. Everything came into place where the coaching finally started working. Cause she was getting frustrated with me and I'm like, look, I think there's something else going on that you're missing. Let's go back to that assessment. Cause we look at five different areas. We look at their health, we look at their purpose. We look at their relationships, not necessarily their personal relationships with the people, how they react with people.

John Jantsch (20:22.468)

Hmm.

John Jantsch (20:32.985)

Hmph.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (20:46.895)

people at work and a few other things like a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset and then we make sure they have the right resources and usually in those five areas it's not about finding one thing in each area John it's about finding that one thing and for her it was low testosterone which is something that I went through a couple years ago so I put in the book.

John Jantsch (20:46.906)

Sure.

John Jantsch (21:00.396)

Yeah. Yeah, that's funny. Well, Kevin, I appreciate you taking a moment, a few moments to share with our audience. Is there someplace you'd invite people to find out more about your work and certainly get a copy of the book?

Kevin D. St.Clergy (21:12.011)

Yeah, you bet. Yes, sir. I always recommend people go to the website blindblaming.com.

We have for 15 bucks, have all four copies of the book that you can get plus a bunch of bonuses. It's just a great way to get in our funnel and you'll get invites to some of the challenges and things like that that we do as well. So blindblaming.com is the best place to go and just from the feedback I've got the last couple of years on the book, the book. You can listen to it whether it's audio, PDF, or if you're a book book person like I am because I'm older, you can get all four copies and I think it'll change your life.

John Jantsch (21:42.854)

I appreciate it. And again, hopefully we'll run into one of these days when we're out there on the road. In fact, I'm going to be in Austin.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (21:51.38)

great, I'd love to see you. Yeah, come up to the compound. We'd love to have you. So we got indoor golf, we got a garage, Mahal, we got a casino, we got a wine cellar. So we got some fun up here. Come see me.

John Jantsch (21:51.537)

maybe I'll stop by.

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John Jantsch (00:03.01)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and no guest today. Again, some of you that have been following along may recall I am doing the seven steps to small business marketing success. This is actually episode number three, step number three. So you can check out in the show notes the past sessions as well if you're just trying to catch up. But today I want to talk about this re new reality. our businesses have

possibly become invisible to AI search. In fact, I want you to do this test.

John Jantsch (00:43.394)

Go to Chat CPT Perplexity Claude, take your pick, right? Type in three questions that your best customers look for or ask when they are looking for a business like yours. Not anything about your particular business, but the the problems they're trying to solve, the the issues that they have. something that they would ask before hiring somebody you. Now, we you can stop the episode right now and do that. I'll wait. but.

John Jantsch (01:16.44)

Describe what mu what you find. think about what you find. Is it nothing? Is it you? are you dominating? That would be awesome, of course. that's a new reality. and this isn't a future problem. This isn't coming. this is a current one. Now, a lot of local businesses are still showing up in in Google and Google Maps, and that's still important, but it's it's fading a bit, right? people, I don't know if it's right or not, but people go today and when they see those like.

Best remodeling contractor in SoSo City, and AI tells them three companies, they believe it. because they've ty typically typed in who do kitchens in older home homes who blah, blah, blah, blah. So it's a very specific type of search now. And the results that come up there are the ones that are winning. so are you coming up there or are your competitors coming up there? I mean, this is this is how research is being done today. and and I think

A lot of small businesses are still optimized for, I don't know, 2019. when all you needed to do, boy, if you showed up on that Google Maps or you showed up in in Google search, then that, you know, that was really all it took. I think this is an opportunity. I mean, I think the founders who act now still absolutely have the the opportunity. It's kind of like when we first went online, we first started blogging, all those kinds of things.

The opportunity now is to actually be first in AI search. So what's changed? for 20 years, as I said, you know, Google, can Google find you? I mean, in a lot of ways, we got lazy because that was the only question you really had to answer. it it still applies. It's just not the whole answer anymore. so what we have to do or or we have to think in terms of is not just

search results, keyword phrases, all the things that were thrown around by SEO folks so much. We have to be findable, we have to be credible, and we have to be retrievable. Those are three things I really want to talk about. And and it's not I I'm not here to talk about how to hack SEO or how to hack, you know, GEO or whatever new term they're gonna come up w with, you know, for for these various engines. It's really just more a matter of how

John Jantsch (03:39.276)

We have to get our story out the same way we always have. It's just sometimes you have to adapt to the new realities of of the buyer. I mean, and I think that's something that doesn't get said enough, is that we're not reacting to the new realities of AI or of Google. We're reacting to how people choose to buy today. And that's really if you keep that in mind, and you keep in mind what they have available to them, that's what we need to really respond to and not just.

Some new platform or some new tool or some new trend or some new hype. All right. So findable. there really is traditional search, social search, and now AI mediated. I don't know what we would call it, search. Those are the three kinds of search that we have to to respond to today. And again, most people have really just thought about one of those. So topic authority.

Think about that. It used to be keywords, right? We we wanted to have a page that that we optimized for you know three or four keywords that people would search and that the search engines would would actually be keyed on. and today it's really more about topic authority, a deep, rich topic authority.

That you can actually prove that you were an expert in, not that you can write about, but that you can actually prove you have the results, you have the case studies, you have the reviews, you have all the things that would human, real human beings would be saying about your business.

This is strategic. It's not technical. And I think a lot of times that's what we've done. We've kind of defaulted to the technical aspects. And frankly, a lot of SEO folks love that because technical is hard. Technical is easy to confuse. strategic is not so much, frankly. And I think that that's the the the part, while it's a mindset shift, I think that's the part that's the real opportunity for folks. So credible.

John Jantsch (05:42.23)

Is the second part. So findable, topic authority, credible. Does your site confirm that they're in the right place? And a lot of times again, I I could talk to I'm blue in the face about websites and and the brochure aspect of them as opposed to the practical aspect of them, but

John Jantsch (06:04.588)

Here's a here's a question I love to ask people. When's the last time you read actually read your homepage? that's what I find is quite often the case. We we'll start working for somebody and we'll have lots of suggestions about ways to improve their homepage. And they actually are like, I didn't even realize we said that, or we don't even offer that service anymore. so you most founders haven't done it in years. And I and I think that quite often we run across sites that reflect the reality of a business three years ago.

I I actually ran into somebody said they haven't updated, they haven't changed one thing on their website since 2019. We are in 2026 today. you know, that that I don't even want to start with how much has changed since 2019. but but clearly that site is not going to perform. and and the thing is, a lot of people get very focused on design. Design's really not going to solve the problem. Yes, the site has to look like somebody.

thinks it's going to look, or that they're used to how to navigate, you know, how it looks. But it's really more about deep proof of real work and and a connection so that when the buyer or potential buyer shows up, says, you get me, or I I feel heard, or you understand the problems that I'm trying to solve. All right. So then the last one is retrievable. So we've got findable, credible,

And retrievable. So this is probably kind of a new one for many people. AI builds its answers from whatever is publicly available on a website, like your website content, structured data, third-party presence, reviews, citations, right? And so all of those things have to be there if if your content is

Very thin, if it is missing structured data, if it's if there's weak external presence, meaning that that people aren't linking back to it, people aren't talking about it. AI can can either find you or really can't describe you with accuracy. And that's why we really want to start talking about, you know, real FAQs. Go read every one of those reviews that you have gotten. plug them into an AI tool and ask that to to analyze and summarize the reviews that you've gotten.

John Jantsch (08:25.382)

many times you that that will be the the absolute gold mine of the problems that you really solve. And then the flip side of that, the fears that a client or your your clients at least were really worried about in in in engaging a company like yours or or your competitors. And I think that that's where we have to start thinking about real content.

That addresses those things because that's what people are searching. They're going out there and saying, I want to find a contractor that won't destroy my home, that won't let my dog out. I mean, they're asking very specific things like that. And that's what AI is trying to surface. And all it does is goes out there and and reads a whole bunch of stuff. and and in fact, we're seeing that businesses that that write that real stuff, the voice of customer, really putting their reviews

Out there as like, here's the problems we solve. Maybe didn't even have a great search presence before because search was dominated by companies that knew how to hack the algorithm. But AI doesn't care about the what Google used to care about. it really cares about retrieving the data to very specific searches that people are making today. So, all right, here are three things that you need to build.

Your website has to be a selling tool, not a brochure. Hub pages, something I've talked about for many years. And the beauty is they become more important than ever. So I'm going to review review that. And then the last one is third party presence. And that's a part that many business owners, I won't say they neglect, but it's just the hard part in a lot of cases. It's the part that you don't control, that you don't own. And so you have to be very intentional about making it happen.

All right. So the website, a brochure describes a selling tool converts. That's the difference, right? And so there are really four things that I think have to be there. They are a priority. there is an order to them. your core message above the fold. Here's who we serve, here's how we solve their problem better than anyone ever thought about. Not here's what we do. your ideal client needs to be named. It's like we serve and we are the best.

John Jantsch (10:45.848)

Better than anyone at serving XYZ. Very specific. Identify segments, whatever it is, identify them so that when somebody arrives there, they're like, Okay, you you work with people like me.

Heart stop on what's next, right? Not a menu, not contact us. One frictionless action for the person who's ready. Schedule a consultation. Download this free assessment. get a quote. don't have a dozen ways that people can think about contacting you. Have very active, not passive, very active. Here is why you should contact us. Here's what you'll get when you schedule. Here is the the

you know, tool that you can use to download to solve your problem. Have a very specific call to action.

Probably what I see more than anything is that first one. The core message is is either buried, generic, or missing entirely. I can't tell you how many sites I still run across that above the fold, first thing somebody reads is a description of what your profession is, what your industry is. We are accountants in XYZ City. and that was a old SEO holdover. but what somebody wants to know is who you serve.

How you solve their problem, how you how you solve their problem like nobody else ever dreamed of doing. That's what they need to understand first. All right, hub pages. So this is, I mentioned already, topic authority. This is your topic authority unit, is a hub page. And so the idea is if you think about a book, you've got a large body of work that is organized around chapters. And that's really what a hub page is. So if you have a topic,

John Jantsch (12:34.478)

Home remodeling kitchens, for example. that's a topic that somebody who wants to remodel a kitchen is going out there and looking for information about. So if you had the page that says everything you need to know about remodeling, but again, that's gonna be broken up into getting ready to remodel. Should you remodel?

Design considerations, appliances, pre-construction, construction, after finishes. I mean, a whole category of subtopics. And so the idea behind a hub page is somebody arrives at that page, maybe they just want to know about wallpaper today. but they are remodeling a kitchen. So they find that page, and then there's a subtopic on you know wall finishes. And so they jump over to that, but then they jump back to the hub page.

So, if when they want to talk about appliances or kitchen countertops, for example. And so this is like the entire guide, the ultimate guide to remodeling your kitchen, has all these subtopics that are essentially blog posts that you link out to. So this, but this page becomes the collection or the structure of all of that topic. And so what that certainly tells the AIs, sells the search engines has for years.

That this is an authoritative page on this topic that then has may it might have 10, 20, 30,000 words ultimately collected in a number of blog posts that are on subtopics. So it's it's probably more about it's not the it's not the content. Well, the content's important, but a huge part of it is the structure of the content. this is like a jumping off point for anybody who wants to know about that topic. And the AI tools as well as the search engines absolutely love that.

And the beauty from a practical small business owner standpoint is that's something you can structure, plan, take a year to build. It's like writing a book, as I said. it just has all of the topics organized on this one page. and you could start having case studies, you can start having look through all of your reviews, and somebody said about how clean you are, somebody said.

John Jantsch (14:48.154)

about your pricing. somebody said about your design. So you you all of a sudden can start organizing your reviews even around some of these topics. And that's that's what the AI tools want to see. That's what they they want to see, topic authority, topic expertise with real proof, not just 700 words that AI spun up, real proof that only you, you're the only ones who can actually talk about what that client got as a result. and so hub pages are

to me, really your secret weapon to dominate. We've done it for we've done them for many, many clients. And they rank have always ranked in SEO and they are always ranking now in AI searches because of the nature the the the real focus nature on a core topic. third party so AI doesn't just use your website.

I mean, really the search engines never did too. That's why p you hear people talk about backlinks and reviews and and getting other people in social media to talk about your products and services. That's always been important. So things like your Google Business profile, industry directories, reviews, mentions, citations across the web, those are all things that you do actually have a way to actively participate in. You don't control them necessarily, people write what they

want to write or going to write, say in reviews and mentions. But you do have the ability to optimize, to, to make sure that your information is correct in those directories. That you are your you you if you do searches in AI, you'll see there are certain directories and certain websites like Reddit and things that that some of the of of the AI tools actually rely on pretty heavily. And and those will change, evolve. They all, you know, they constantly are.

But you get a sense of some places maybe that you're not mentioned. Say how's, you know, again, going back to where I'm remodeling contractor, is a source that a lot of the AI tools depend on. It's an authoritative source. are you playing there? that that just gives you some some ideas on some third-party places. in a lot of ways, think about it as I think we've always thought about it as housekeeping.

John Jantsch (17:05.848)

To to be in those directories, to make sure that they were correct, that you didn't have the wrong phone number. A lot of people look at that as housekeeping. And I think today, in today's environment, it's it's more infrastructure. you know, it's something that you actually have to build, it's behind the scenes, it you know, it's not gonna pay off today. Long term thing that you need to to build as part of the infrastructure of your business. So if you didn't run that test, pause now and run that test.

Screenshot the baseline. Are your your competitors showing up at when you do a search that your customers were are likely asking? are you showing up? it just kind of gives you the picture of, you know, if you've ignored this, it gives you the picture of what you have to do. so that's really it today. I I will tell you that if if some of the things I talked about today, again, go get the free ebook. it's dtm.

world slash seven steps. I misspoke. We I think we're charging $4.99 for it tremendous amount of value. It's more of a workbook than an ebook. it'll give you lots of things to think about, lots of things to work on as well. So it's DTM.world seven steps. And if you just want to skip all of that and find out how working with us and and having us install strategy first in your business and then build a marketing operating system.

with you that you own that that can address the each of these seven steps, that is just duct tapemarketing.com slash consultation. So thanks for tuning in. next episode, episode step number five of seven is coming up. So thanks for tuning in. Hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

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John Jantsch (00:01.39)

So what if the reason smart entrepreneurs still feel anxious about money has less to do with math and more to do with the habits quietly running their lives? Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Mike Michalowicz. He's a bestselling author, entrepreneur, and long time champion for helping business owners take back control of their time, money, and energy. He's the author of many books, Profit First, Clockwork,

fix this next all in, but today we're gonna talk about his latest, the money habit, the worry-free way to financial independence. So Mike, welcome back to the show.

Mike Michalowicz (00:41.31)

John is amazing. You know, we've known each other, I think, 17 years. We're almost approaching 20 years of knowing each other. Isn't that amazing? Yeah.

John Jantsch (00:47.586)

Wow, dang. I got sneakers older than that though. That's nothing.

Mike Michalowicz (00:53.29)

Those Chuck E. T's that you wear. I love those things.

John Jantsch (00:55.854)

So, all right, you're back with another book about money. The Profit First book is pretty much legendary. mean, you've sold six gazillion and have lots of people practicing that. And you brought that to a lot of entrepreneurs. But why are you going back to the well on a more personal book now to help individuals? And I'm assuming there's a lot of cross-ups.

Mike Michalowicz (01:24.618)

There's a lot crossover and it originally started off with helping the entrepreneur, but there's another larger community that it's now serving and I'm focusing on or paying more attention to. But the entrepreneur, I found John is some folks deployed profit first or in some other ways move their business forward so that the business was highly profitable. But their lifestyle started gobbling away at the business and they weren't managing the numbers at home. And therefore, the home leached off the business.

And I also saw the reverse. I've seen some people prepare for retirement, future, and then they start an entrepreneurial endeavor and it doesn't do well. It struggles and leeches off the home and both collapse. So I had the awareness like, if you're not nailing numbers at both sides, the business and the home front, you're screwed. And then I realized this was the biggest aha. I got a call from a business owner that was doing profit first.

And he said his employees are coming to him asking for raises, seeing if they can get in advance. And he goes, I want to accommodate that. By a certain point, the business will no longer be sustainable. They need help managing their money because most people believe that the solution to financial struggle is more money. And the reality is the solution of financial struggle is authority and control over money. And then more money helps, but you need to assert that control first. And that's why I the book.

John Jantsch (02:45.794)

Yeah, and it's interesting, but I mean, you even in the subtitle, have worry free. mean, so there's stress and behavior issues. people grow up with real, you know, I grew up not wealthy at all, lower middle class. I have nine siblings and so money was always an issue. so I kept, you know, my parents really struggled to spend any money because it was like, we got to buy milk or we're going to do this.

And so I think a lot of people like that kind of grow up almost with a unhealthy relationship with money. I mean, it's like the last thing they want to even talk about.

Mike Michalowicz (03:25.706)

There's no question there's generational financial trauma and we are programmed. There was an article that broke from USA Today. I think it was in August of 2025 that really shocked me awake and it said financial worry has become a part time job. And it went on to explain that for the typical American that we are worrying about some kind of financial consequence for hours a day on average.

John Jantsch (03:29.475)

Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (03:54.618)

And that's devastating because it eats away at us, not just emotionally, but physically. mostly, yeah, you're distracted at work. So your productivity declines. It becomes to some degree a vicious cycle. So what we have to do is we have to learn to make not make do with what we got. We have to assert control over what we've currently got first. And then we start building from there.

John Jantsch (04:01.09)

Yeah, you don't sleep. mean, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (04:21.654)

Would it be safe to just call the money habit basically profit first for personal finances or am I missing something?

Mike Michalowicz (04:29.49)

I was missing something actually, because originally that's what I wanted to call it. was profit first personal. And then I realized this is a radically different book. So when I started interviewing people, the biggest difference is that the majority of income earners or not entrepreneurs have a predictable income or no income. So you're humming along and maybe get a little raises over time incrementally. And then someone else can turn off the switch and all of a it stops and you start up again.

John Jantsch (04:32.577)

Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (04:55.698)

an entrepreneur's trajectory is much more volatile up and down. You have a banner year and you're walking on water and then you have a devastating period after that. Prop first was designed to work for volatility. The money habit is designed to work with potential predict more predictability, but also understanding that the climb won't be as fast and hopefully the decline won't be as fast either as entrepreneurs expect. So I had to integrate that.

and how to work with different income levels. The average American earns $50,000 a year. So this book is designed to work on the average or serve the average income earner and people can earn more and people can earn less. And why designed is as your income changes, we need to change ratios for what we're addressing. If you own less than the average earner in the US,

You're going to focus more on the essentials of living food shelter. If you are earning more than the average, you may be able to orient more toward future dreams, some aspirational things you have.

But the other thing is a lot of people come in with different mindsets. Some people are recovering from debt. Other people are preparing for future events. Classically was retirement, but now it could be just activating funds like taking the family on a two year sabbatical. That that is like a mini retirement before you officially retire. And there's other goals. So I call these seasons. And so the book speaks to.

John Jantsch (06:14.147)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:19.084)

Hmm.

Mike Michalowicz (06:20.744)

tiered income levels, more predictable income levels, but what to do when you lose your income. And it speaks to the season that you are in currently. And that's not in profit first.

John Jantsch (06:32.78)

So there are other mentors books out there, Dave Ramsey comes to mind and it's like, pay off your debt. Don't get a latte, just have discipline. mean, are you essentially saying that but just in a nicer way?

Mike Michalowicz (06:40.958)

Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (06:46.57)

No, I first let me start by saying Dave Ramsey's work has been personally transformative for me. I love it. Yet this is not a translation of that or an expansion of it. It's a different perspective. For most people, discipline becomes a form of one of two things will trigger retaliation. So depravation discipline becomes deprivation. Deprivation becomes retaliation.

It's classic in diets, like don't eat anything with sugar and we don't until it's all you think about, right? And you retaliate. The other scenario, which is far less frequent is the Scrooge mentality. When you go into deprivation, there's a certain point that says that your identity shifts enough you say, I will never spend money. Then why are you earning money? And so there's people who have accumulated a lot of money and it's all about the fear of losing that money. So they live like paupers. So I found deprivation works for very few.

John Jantsch (07:14.584)

Yeah, that's all you can think about.

John Jantsch (07:36.046)

Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (07:40.712)

So this system is nothing like, in this case, Dave Ramsey system. What it does is it's based upon what I call behavioral intercepts. Commitment devices is the technical term in behavioral psychology. Understand your current natural path of behavior instead of trying to change how you behave, deprivation, these external spreadsheets or apps or whatever. Instead, look at what you're naturally doing and put commitment devices in that pathway that assure that you will get what you want. And the beautiful part is

You don't need to change yourself. Just keep doing what you're doing with a system that directs the outcome that you desire.

John Jantsch (08:16.974)

So in Profit First, to be one of the things that you introduced that, you know, I hate to like go, well, duh. But for a lot of people, you know, everybody goes like, pay yourself first, have, you know, put away for taxes. I mean, everybody gets that, but you created the bucket or envelope system for that, which was basically just what they should be doing, but you kind of enabled it and put it in front of them. And all of a it was like, no, it became a habit. Is that...

Mike Michalowicz (08:28.018)

Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (08:39.39)

Correct.

John Jantsch (08:45.134)

The same thing that you're talking about in a lot of ways that that that it's habits It's not like I'm never gonna spend this it's I'm gonna have a set of habits that are gonna serve my objective

Mike Michalowicz (08:54.984)

Yeah, so I've deployed established systems. In fact, the envelope system goes back to biblical times. It's in actually all the religious, significant religious books and manuals. Tithing is a concept or prepaying and allocating for an intention before you quote benefit from it. And other systems like pay yourself first. That's the same idea is reserving money for an intention first. The envelope system is carving money up.

What I did was I modernized it by realizing the path that most people follow. So it's funny. I just did a presentation to a large group and I surveyed the audience. said, what's the most common money app today? And I heard rocket money because it's advertised so aggressively. heard, it's spreadsheet. I heard why NAB you need a budget, which is a great system.

John Jantsch (09:40.302)

Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (09:45.226)

I okay, I said, what do you log into most to manage your money? And the response was my bank. said, your bank then is your app. The most used app in the world is our bank account. And for many people in that room, they were logging in daily or multiple times a day to see how much money you have.

John Jantsch (09:55.266)

Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (10:04.456)

So what I did was I said, okay, there's established systems out there that work, but why aren't we all using them? Because we know they work because they don't, we don't stumble over them. They're not forced down our gullet. So that's I realized this needs to be done at the bank level. And that's why it's there.

John Jantsch (10:19.662)

So you mentioned the word budget in talking about one of the apps, but you, you, you kind of take it to task a little bit, right? I mean, that as, as far as why budgeting failed for the traditional person.

Mike Michalowicz (10:32.947)

Yeah, yeah.

This is the money habit is a real time budget. So when you spend a dollar from an account, so let me just kind of set the stage. We understand we have multiple accounts at our bank and ultimately you can get very specific, but you could have more generic ones like my essentials needs my my lattes out or whatever people like to talk about. And that's the wants. These are the mean luxuries and so forth. But you can be very specific. My wife and I have a mortgage account, for example, and we allocate money to that account every day.

John Jantsch (11:00.578)

Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (11:04.584)

Well, what happens is it's a real time budget. So when I log into my bank account, if the money is there, I know exactly how much is there. Once the money gets transferred over to pay my mortgage or I go out and have that latte or whatever it is, I only use debit cards. I will see that money instantly withdrawn and next time I log in, I know what's truly available. So it's living with you at a real time. I do want to add one little asterisk. I say I only use debit cards. I only use debit cards linked to those accounts.

I do still use credit cards. think credit cards can be a valuable tool when managed right. So I'm not rejecting.

John Jantsch (11:32.44)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:39.086)

Yeah, those airline points. mean, I love them. All right. So, talk a little bit about that idea. You hinted at it, but first people don't know the idea of separating money by purpose. know, instead of, so you are literally talking about, instead of like, here's my checking account, it's here's my aid accounts that are separated by purpose and I'm making allocations, which probably freaks some banks out. I mean, it's hard to open an account in some banks.

Mike Michalowicz (11:41.438)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:08.302)

So I know you've also developed some banking relationships too.

Mike Michalowicz (12:12.828)

I do. And we have a website called money habit bank calm. So you can find a

banks that support this. There's one bank in particular that's really aggressive. It's called Dream First. And when I say aggressive, they're actively supporting this and love it. And they focus on personal finances. But if you go to moneyhabitbank.com, that's the site. Yeah, some banks will resist it. Here's the irony is when people use Profit First, and this is a derivative of Profit First, it's not total.

Totally new. Prefers, we have over 1.1 million deployments of it. So we have a lot of case studies under our belt. Money habit is now starting to get some serious momentum. have, we think about 10,000 books in circulation. It's kind of hard to measure, but so the deployments are coming in, actually the emails are coming in actively of what we ask people, when did you set it up? us, tell me. And what we're finding is,

Some banks say, why are you saying all these accounts when you do in person, but when you're online, that friction's gone away. You just click and you click and you click and click. And it's surprising how many banks, particularly regional small banks, will do no fee, no balance necessary accounts. So do it online. You won't experience that.

John Jantsch (13:14.51)

That's true.

Mike Michalowicz (13:27.114)

But I also suggest you start off slow. think setting up eight accounts or five or ten, whatever you want, is a little overwhelming. You can actually start the money habit with just one account. And I call it the worry or wonder account. And it's real simple. Whatever is the most frequent financial concern that you have for some people, it's like

Can I cover the rent or the mortgage for other people's like, Hey, can I pay groceries today? Can I afford that? And for some people, and it seems pretty common is retirement. Like do I have enough money to retire? Whatever is the thing that comes to you most frequently or the first thing that pops your mind, set that account. And let's just for easy sake, say it's mortgage. And let's just say is $4,000 a month, which ironically is pretty close to my darn mortgage, but it's 4,000 bucks and say I get paid once a week.

John Jantsch (13:50.007)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (14:06.862)

You

Mike Michalowicz (14:10.758)

Every week I'm going to allocate $1,000 to the mortgage account to assure I cover the nut. Now what's interesting is that starts alleviating some of worry because I'm always worried if I can pay the mortgage. Now I know with confidence, but the magic isn't there. The magic's in the remainder because what you start seeing is, I only have XYZ available for the rest of my lifestyle. It starts bringing subconscious kind of

John Jantsch (14:29.827)

Yeah, right.

Mike Michalowicz (14:34.94)

reaction to conscious consideration. And that's the goal of the money habit. And that's where financial independence happens. When you assert authority and control over money as opposed to it having control over you.

John Jantsch (14:45.912)

So we've kind of touched on this, but how do you begin repairing people's, you know, that have kind of this guilt and this fear and avoidance over money? Do you feel like just equipping them with this tools enough or is that going to take some deeper work?

Mike Michalowicz (15:03.742)

Yeah, for me, my wife and I took some deeper work, we came from very different perspectives. She grew up in absolute abject poverty. I grew up in middle middle middle class to upper middle class. So the whole perception was radically different. And it would cause

frustration and arguments between us. What happened was I asserted the control over money and my wife would then ask me, hey, Mike, can I go out with my friends or do I this available? And I either say yes or no, almost like a parent child relationship. The beauty of the system is it's just numbers, man, they're in front of you, you face it and you have to consider it. So when you do this by yourself, or you do it with a partner, which many people do, it gives you absolute clarity and you start teeming against it or with it.

The other thing is to start slow because if you come from a money trauma situation, it's quite appropriate to be very skeptical if this is going to work. So just start with that one account. See how it serves you. See the emotions it brings about with the awareness it brings about. Then try another account and then another account. But it's so interesting with this absolute clarity. I often find out that people are very capable because of the system. The last thing I want to share on the subject is I was at this event

And someone's like, yeah, it was like 700 people in the room. There's one guy, he grabs a microphone and goes, yeah. He goes, really interesting system. He goes like, you're already good with money because I suck with money. I'm not good with money. This isn't going to work for me. I said, hold on. In that question, you said something that's not true. I'm not good with money. I've never been good with money. I found systems that are really good with money. And so I'm perceived to be good with money, but it's because of the system. So it's very capable of working with people that aren't good with money. That's not the goal.

John Jantsch (16:29.613)

Ha!

John Jantsch (16:48.91)

I'm going to allow you to be very self-serving with this question. If somebody's got profit first, heck, maybe they're even a quasi-practitioner, do they need this book too to apply to their personal situation?

Mike Michalowicz (16:55.422)

Can you borrow a few bucks you won't borrow $1,000.

Mike Michalowicz (17:11.338)

The big question is maybe, or the answer is maybe I should say, I'm surprised how many people struggle to translate profit first to another application because a lot of us just want to follow the script. And if you're the type of person, and most of us are, I'm that type of person, I want to the prescription, then the money habit will help you because it addresses the nuances of lifestyle and income in a home, which is different than a business.

At the same time is some people have translated this on their own. That's actually how this kind of came about. I got a call from an entrepreneur who said, hey, I'm doing this in my house and it's working for me, but my employees are struggling. Can you help my employees? And that's when I realized I needed to adjust the book a little bit. for in John, in your case to support me, get the book. Just get the book.

John Jantsch (18:00.11)

That's really all I wanted you to say, So, all right, for the business owner listening right now, feels very profitable on paper, but maybe anxious in real life because that's a little bit of what you're describing. And maybe that's just the common state for entrepreneurs, right? You're always like, when's the shoe going to drop? You know, no matter how good it's going, right? Or how well it's going. So, where should they start?

Mike Michalowicz (18:03.37)

You

Mike Michalowicz (18:22.376)

Yeah, my god. Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:29.031)

Because probably the first step is like, how do we relieve some of that anxiety? So where should they start?

Mike Michalowicz (18:36.535)

with their business? Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:38.092)

Yeah, or really with this concept and you know, this week, like, you know, I've got this like anxiety in my business. Or, I mean, I feel pretty good about my business. It's going pretty well, but I've got this anxiety on the other side of my life. Where should I start?

Mike Michalowicz (18:41.086)

This concept, yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (18:49.257)

Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (18:54.844)

One of my colleagues, name's Erin Moser, said something great. We had an event and we're on stage and someone asked a similar question and she said, she looked around, she goes, if in doubt, add an account. And that's become like a mantra. And when there's concern about something, create an account that addresses that concern. For many business owners that don't have profit first in their business or they're not using the money habit at their home,

John Jantsch (19:06.986)

funny.

Mike Michalowicz (19:19.812)

it's runway is the biggest concern. Like I don't know if the other shoe is going to drop and what to do. So in that case, we often set up a profit account to ensure they're profitable. We also set up an account we call it the vault and the vault is a reserve to cover expenses for your business. Should the other shoe drop for an extended period of time months. So in our case, it's a year. That's how vaulty I am. We've ensured that our salary for every employee is covered for one year in a specific account. and the other shoe has dropped.

So, it was so interesting is when the shoe drops for us, there was a lawsuit that was ridiculous and cause off guard. there was a slowdown in business. You know, there's all these things that happen when those things happen, without having some kind of cushion or runway, we become highly reactive. That's where people do desperate things. But since we had that, we were able to move through those steps very methodically and recover to an amplitude.

John Jantsch (20:10.734)

Sure.

John Jantsch (20:18.207)

I'm curious, in some of your other work you have created a licensing or a network of folks that are practitioners of what the book preaches. Is that in the works for this on a personal level?

Mike Michalowicz (20:29.898)

It is it is money habit mentors and we have 40 certified mentors already. so money habit mentors dot coms, the website is actually part of our profit first professionals because these these programs, the money habit and profit first run so in parallel. That's the umbrella organization managing it.

John Jantsch (20:42.563)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:48.118)

Nice. Awesome. Well, Mike, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by. Is there any place in particular you invite people to learn more about the money habit and connect with you?

Mike Michalowicz (20:56.168)

Yeah, if you if you want to learn about the book and learn about me, it's Mike motorbike dot com. No one gets public. How low it's got to be clear motorbike like the motorcycle. Some people confuse it with some other stuff. But Mike motorbike dot com. All the resources, the books, even pictures of me and you together at events are on that site.

John Jantsch (21:12.972)

No way. Awesome. Mike again, it's always great to catch up with you and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days soon out there on the road.

Mike Michalowicz (21:19.839)

That would be good. Thanks, John.

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John Jantsch (00:01.666)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and no guests today. I'm actually gonna do a bunch of solo shows. So I'm still gonna have a guest. So if you're listening in line, you will hear the occasional guests still. But I'm doing seven shows as a series. So if you wanna, I'll tag them all and I'll remind you this is episode number three of the seven. but I wrote an ebook about 20 years ago.

Called The Seven Steps of Small Business Marketing Success. It was extremely popular, downloaded hundreds of thousands of times. It was a talk that I gave dozens and dozens of times. Because it really took all of the issues that a lot of small business owners were experiencing with marketing and identified them, but also then put them in order to correct.

So over time that became less relevant. however, the fundamentals of marketing have not changed. So for 2026, I completely updated this. And so there is a brand new version of the seven steps of small business marketing success. And I'll tell you how you can get a copy of it. It's more workbook, I think than than ebook. Certainly it has great information in it for you, but but it also asks you to do some things, to think about some things, to take action on things. So

I've really been referring to it as more of a workbook. So this is episode number one, which is step number one, and something I call the the founder portrait, why clarity comes before strategy. So quite often marketing fails upstream, if you will, you know, in the tactics, when they're being done, how they're being done. but

The founder is often the variable that nobody talks about. And that's what this episode's really about. You know, I've had this conversation many, many times with founders. they want to hire a new agency, build a new website, do new campaign. Six months later, nothing's really changed. so the first question I always ask is: I mean, when did you last look at your business? Honestly, when did you last look at your relationship with

John Jantsch (02:19.084)

that business, honestly. And and frankly, that doesn't sound like a marketing question, but it really is at the heart of a marketing question or or really at the heart of the challenge with marketing that a lot of small business owners face. So and what happens is, you know, a founder starts a business, they start growing successfully, maybe 10 years in, business feels okay.

but it doesn't feel the same. It doesn't feel right. kind of it it it's maybe drifted a little bit from you know, what they thought it was going to be. And and you know, it's funny with drift, it it goes very slowly and then all at once you find yourself somewhere that that you didn't think you wanted to be. And and a lot of that has to do with the fact that as a business grows, you know, decisions and how decisions are made actually.

needs to change also. And I think that that what I've discovered is that's one of the toughest ones. Maybe you're hiring people to do tasks that you used to do, but the decisions for how they're held accountable, the decisions for what it is that you do now as the founder, you know, is a thing that really never changed. and and this isn't really a th this definitely is not a story about failure because a lot of times it's just it's that thing you just can't identify. Things seem to be going okay, but you just can't if identify, you know, the the

The position that you're in. So here's what I want you to do. And and if you want to, if you need to stop this, I hate to tell you to stop it because I I want you to come back, but if you need to stop this, go grab a pen and paper, or a pencil, even and paper, and come back here. Cause I'm gonna ask you to give some thought to four pretty intense questions. but but and you may not know the answers to them, but I want to get you thinking.

about them because I think that they can actually unlock some things that maybe you haven't been able to identify in your marketing. All right, so I'll pause. You can pause now. Go get that paper or if it's right there. And we're back, right? Okay, you're back with your pen and paper. All right. So here are the four questions. Number one, and you can pause this to answer the questions and come back and and I'll read the the the other questions as well.

John Jantsch (04:44.534)

What's actually working in your business and how do you know? This can be a pretty broad question, but I am certainly talking about marketing for the most part. you know, the there's a difference between activity, you know, like what we're doing a bunch of and what's working. and I think a lot of times we conflate activity with with what's working. So working means it's produces revenue.

it or it reduces your cost to acquire a customer. I mean, a lot of times everything else is just activity. All right. So that's number one. What's actually working and how do you know?

John Jantsch (05:27.436)

Okay, number two.

And this is this is where it starts getting a little interesting for you. What are you doing out of habit, guilt, or maybe even optimism that you should stop? Now, maybe nobody's ever asked you that, maybe you've never even thought about that idea, but boy, especially out of habit. Things that we just do because, hey, we've always done them, or everybody in our industry has always done them that way.

John Jantsch (06:01.312)

So as you think about this, think about all the elements of your business. is there a service line that never quite worked, but you can't give up on? You know, a channel that that that you've been on since 2021 and haven't really considered. I think I think naming it is is quite frankly is the hard part. to really dig in and think, you know, are we on TikTok because everybody said we should be, but we hate it and we don't know if we're getting anything out of

So naming it, I think sometimes then gives you the permission to stop doing it. And a lot of times effective marketing or marketing strategy starts with figuring out the things that you're doing today that you should stop doing. Okay, answer question two, and we'll move on to three.

John Jantsch (06:51.948)

Where is your business actually making money versus where are you pretending it is? Pretending might feel like a strong word, but I do think a lot of times we just assume you know that might be a better word, that that certain elements or certain things that we're doing are actually making money for the business. And every now and then, especially if you're one of those business owners like me, that you know, the the finance part of the business is something that I just

Feel like we hire a bookkeeper and they take care of it. I don't really study it. But if you're ignoring that element of your business and you're not really seeing where profit is, you're not really tracking the inputs like labor that go into things, quite often we can convince ourselves or kid ourselves that something's making money because it's generating revenue. And revenue and profit are certainly not the same thing. So

John Jantsch (07:50.424)

Some of the things that we stick to and continue to do are because we like them, or because we like doing them, or because we feel good about them, or because we've always done them. You start doing this math on your PL or really digging into expenses, and you start realizing we should stop focusing on this. And I I'll tell you one of the areas, one of the areas that I always find.

this is true for a lot of businesses, is that we're focused on the wrong client, or we've taken clients because maybe it was slow that month and and it wasn't a good fit. We're losing money on that. We should just stop doing that altogether. We should stop offering that service altogether because even though we can attract clients, it's actually holding us back. It's actually costing us an opportunity to actually be able to grow the business or scale the business because.

we won't let go of that because for fear of the fact that well gosh we're gonna take a you know a hundred thousand dollar hit or something if we quit doing that line of business. When more often than not, that's what's gonna lead to the twenty, thirty, forty percent growth in in the really profitable business. All right. So that was question three.

Question four is quite possibly the hardest for some because we've stopped thinking about this. What do we actually want this business to give us? What do you, in your particular case, want this business to give you? Now, most marketing work completely skips this category. And I think that you know, a lot of times when we work with business owners, and that's why I'm asking these questions, because this is how we start a strategy first engagement.

Is getting into this founder's portrait, as I like to call it. because a lot of decisions are made because they are to grow revenue or because you saw somebody else doing their marketing a certain way. And and they're not necessarily based in, well, this is actually what I want this business to give me. I just want to do meaningful work. I want to have a certain exit, I want to have a certain lifestyle. And if we're not

John Jantsch (09:59.04)

making decisions based on that quite often we'll we'll make decisions for the wrong reasons. they won't be bad decisions necessarily, but they'll just be made for the wrong reason. So there's a difference between I think how you would actually view marketing in general based on that. And and if if if you don't know the answers to that question to number four, really no marketing strategy is going to serve you, or you'll get lucky, I guess.

if it does. All right. So I hope you took some time. If not, please go back and listen to this. when you're at a place where that you can actually give some thought to those questions and actually record your thoughts on those questions because you'll get a lot clearer if you do. So what we're trying to do is create what what we call the founder's portrait. So this is not a document that you would ever share. it's just the ground you stand on. It's like, okay.

It it's the filter. you know, without it, I think everything downstream, everything you ask people to do sort of inherits the blur, if you will, that that's created. with it, I think, who you attract as an IC I see you know a a core client, who you attract

From from a messaging standpoint, the channels that you go on. I mean, everything gets built on something that I think is real because of this founder's portrait. So this process might take you an hour. One blank page, four questions, no team, no advisors, no AI. Don't use AI to answer these questions. and and don't try to turn this into a plan. see where it takes you. See if it opens up questions for you. see if it

is challenging in a way that makes you rethink everything about your business. And again, maybe you've got the answer, maybe you've got clarity, but quite frankly, that can actually be just as potent knowing that can be just as impotent or just as potent as as as actually coming up with a plan because of it. So one of the things I'd ask you to do if you're up for this challenge is if you answer these questions. I'd love it if you would

John Jantsch (12:19.176)

just email. It's just John at Duct Tape Marketing. email me your thoughts on question number four. I would love to collect some of those. I I'd I'd really love to see, you know, what you want the business to give you. I want to see really personal responses. And I and certainly I will reply. There's no wrong answer, so I'm not gonna tell you, no, you need to redo this. but I'd love to hear what you're thinking. I'd love to hear how deep that you got.

in those. So that's all I have for day. for today. I will tell you if you want to get a copy of the ebook that I referenced, this is step number one. I'm going to do seven episodes based on obviously a a session on each step. is it's DTM.world. So that's DTM like duct tape marketing dot world slash seven steps. is five bucks. just so you have some skin in the game. But I think you will find

the workbook aspect of this. lots of great information, but also lots of great action steps and things to to ask you to do. So take care and hopefully we will run into you one of these days out there on the road.

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John Jantsch (00:01.848)

What if the reason your team can't have hard conversations with you, with each other, with clients isn't a communication problem, but a values problem hiding underneath one? Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Aiko Bethea. She's the founder and CEO of Rare Coaching and Consulting, an executive coach to Fortune 100 companies and nonprofits and the author.

of a book we're going to talk about today, Anchored, Aligned, Accountable, a framework for transcending bullshit and transforming our lives and work with a forward by Brene Brown. She's a former director of at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and a Dare to Lead certified facilitator. So Iko, welcome to the show.

Aiko (00:50.733)

Hi, thanks for having me, John.

John Jantsch (00:52.352)

So, you know, these books, they've become really popular now that have curse words in the title. You know, that's kind of a new thing. And then you put these, you know, you don't want to have the full word. So you put the little aster, or the, what do we call that? An asterisk in there. So how are we supposed to pronounce that when it has the asterisk in it? I just went, blew through it and said the real word, but I always find that funny.

Aiko (00:56.995)

Ha ha ha!

Aiko (01:05.953)

Asterisk. huh. You're right.

Aiko (01:15.257)

Well, one, I think you said it perfectly. When I'm with audiences, oftentimes maybe I'll say BS instead, but you were perfect.

John Jantsch (01:17.006)

Hahaha

John Jantsch (01:21.678)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you have worked with major institutions, Fortune 500 companies mentioned earlier, the Gates Foundation. Now you're working with businesses of all sizes, really. What did you see inside those bigger organizations that made you want to build a framework for something, I don't know, some people might see as unglamorous, like self leadership?

Aiko (01:46.979)

Yeah, I would say that the same thing I saw within organizations when I was supporting them with their culture reflected what I saw in the leaders at all levels. So not just the C-suite that I work with, but also folks who might be entry level. And it was this, what could have been built for them is knowing who they are and who they want to be as a leader.

versus always looking for external validation, second guessing themselves based on whichever way the wind was blowing. Is my boss glad today? Are they in a bad mood? Who do I need to be? Did I get an argument with my partner today? What is the news saying? I remember that voice of my grandmother that was saying X, and Z, but supporting them and getting right back to their own grounding of who is it that they want to be and to have that intrinsic motivation.

versus going any way which the wind blows and feeling insecure or unsupported.

John Jantsch (02:46.158)

When you, we already mentioned the BS in the subtitle, was there a pattern that you were actually naming when you chose that for your framing?

Aiko (02:56.341)

Absolutely. We say the framework itself is very simplistic. The framework for self leadership at home or at work is being anchored into your values, aligned in terms of your actions, aligning with those values, and then being accountable for whatever that impact might be as well. And I would say that just with that alone, it helps people to come back to the forefront. And I had to think about what gets in the way of somebody actually practicing this framework.

And it's what I call the BS. So they could be the things in terms of we all have a community or family of origin, this belief that you need to always be producing to earn your worth, a belief of perfectionism or scarcity, which is like, hey, there's only enough of juice to go around, right? Or here comes John being hired, so I need to either sabotage him or keep one upping him versus thinking there's enough of space for everyone.

And once I go into scarcity, it completely goes, it's like the cousin of catastrophizing. Because once I realize, man, John's a new guy on the block, he's gonna, there's only space for one of us. And I think, wow, you're doing so well and you're outshining me. Next thing I do is I see that I'm gonna be fired. I'm not gonna be able to pay my bills. We're gonna be homeless. It happens like in a second. So the BS is really all of these things that...

we default to and may not always even recognize where they're coming from, but they stop us from being able to be anchored, aligned, and accountable.

John Jantsch (04:28.718)

I love that talking about that because so many people, it's it's cliche, but it's from childhood, right? A lot of the stuff that we carry around. I have nine siblings, so there were 10 children in my family. And so I should have a scarcity mentality, right? But my mom was always, her big thing was up, there's always room for one more. There's always room for one more.

Aiko (04:40.126)

woah.

Aiko (04:48.471)

I love that, yes.

John Jantsch (04:49.0)

And, and, and I think that that just really, you know, I feel like I do have that, like, Hey, I have no competitors. There's like the world's this big place, you know? And so, so it is funny that we do carry that into however we show up.

Aiko (05:02.095)

And that's a beautiful gift that your mom gave you. That's a great gift.

John Jantsch (05:03.662)

So there's a, mean, you're talking about being anchored in values. think a lot of business owners would say, well, yeah, I bring my values to it. My business is all about what I believe and what I value. So what's the difference between having those values and actually, in your words, being anchored in?

Aiko (05:25.155)

Yeah, so I could probably show you better than I could tell you. So I start off with asking people just top two values, because once you get to four, five, and six, it's just dilution. So John, what would you say one of your top values is? What is your top two?

John Jantsch (05:38.51)

top values? Well, I kind of shared one of them, I think that abundance, you know, is that the world's an abundant place is certainly one of them. And then I would like to say also kindness that, you know, that that that's something that's hard to in practice when you're especially as a business owner, when you're forced with like people punching you, or it feels like it. But I would say those those are pretty high.

Aiko (06:04.269)

Yeah, yes. So when you're in an abundance in that value, what are you doing? You kind of told us a little bit, but just say a couple of actions.

John Jantsch (06:15.086)

One, as I said, know, really certainly not viewing in the business context, not viewing people as competitors, but really viewing people as as collaborators, know, partners more often, regardless of how the world might label them.

Aiko (06:30.957)

Lovely and then kindness. What does that look like? What are you doing?

John Jantsch (06:34.774)

Well, probably starts with words, know, really choosing words carefully and not, you know, not letting like the fact that I'm stressed out about a deadline or something of impact, how I maybe show up in a meeting before that or something.

Aiko (06:49.495)

Yes, so have this degree of intentionality about what you say and maybe there are these behaviors that sounds like you maybe even pause before you say or do something. So one of your. You do I want to let you know.

John Jantsch (06:58.582)

I sound like a really good person, don't I?

Aiko (07:04.597)

And if we go back to your question that you asked, you said, why does it get in the way in terms of people being able to be anchored in their values? And because your values are so lovely, I'm going to take a different turn on this of what could get in the way of that is that our values also have a shadow side, like when we over index on them. And so it might be, John, that there's somebody who, let's just say your business, you have somebody who is, you know, perpetually coming in late, leaving early.

John Jantsch (07:09.272)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:20.642)

Hmm.

Aiko (07:34.64)

something and your value is kindness so you want to you know you want to be able to not like be yelling you're being very intentional about the words you use etc and this is not the case for you because I know that you're a mature leader period but what might get in the way of somebody really being in that anchored in that value of kindness might be the shadow side where I'm not gonna give Bob the feedback might land really

John Jantsch (08:01.966)

Mm-hmm.

Aiko (08:03.821)

in a hard place because my value is kindness. And so I don't want to hurt him. I also don't want him to feel like there's not enough space or room at the table for him. So I might not live into truly what that value of kindness is, which you'll go to the impact. Your impact isn't likely that you want Bob to keep underperforming. And if you keep thinking about you'd be like, the impact is I want Bob to be able to do his best.

And so we would have to look at the impact, and you're like, well, if I don't say anything, I'm actually not moving into my value. So that critical self-awareness and curiosity would take you to, wow, actually my value would tell me that I need to give him this feedback. And that's the kindest I could be. Because I want the impact to be that he is able to show up and do his best work. But that shadow side can sometimes deter us from truly being in that value. And instead, we're deflecting

John Jantsch (08:36.493)

Yeah.

Aiko (09:01.101)

or going over indexing in other ways. So that's the other side of it.

John Jantsch (09:06.552)

Well, that's really interesting. talk about that kind of flip side of it, because I will say that I've learned through trial and error that sometimes that kindness can show up in the negative and that I hate confrontation. And sometimes confrontation is necessary, but I avoid confrontation sometimes. that's an instance where it actually having maybe that self-awareness is

Really an important understanding, isn't

Aiko (09:37.968)

Absolutely and you're drilling and peeling back on that value. It's still the value of kindness, but you realize wow kindness means being able to have this impact. Helping Bob to be the best he can and helping you to be able to be honest and authentic versus just sparing somebody's feeling and actually I'm trying to avoid conflict. So that's how values we can live into them by being so clear about it and being clear of the impact.

John Jantsch (09:46.914)

Yeah, yeah.

Aiko (10:04.267)

Usually people don't get to that next point of the check and balance, is, but am I having the impact I want? Wait, I'm not in alignment.

John Jantsch (10:10.413)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I already let the self-awareness term out of the bag. I swear every leadership book that's ever been written, I've had a lot of leadership authors on here. I mean, I can't think of one leadership book that didn't start with the need for self-awareness. If you're going to be a leader, you have to realize all the ways that you're sabotaging yourself or all the behaviors that aren't coming across like you think they are. So how...

I mean, when you work with somebody who is clearly not seeing what's obvious, you know, in a lot of cases, I mean, how do you get a business owner who believes they're in alignment to actually see where the gap is?

Aiko (10:53.551)

Yeah, usually, and there are my coaching practices, I really do go in knowing that and believing that my clients are completely resourceful. I don't need to tell them or direct them what to do. As a matter of fact, me telling them isn't going to help them. Otherwise, they just read an HBR article and do what it says, right? So the idea is that intrinsic innovation so that they are living into who they want to be. So first we'd start with what impact do they want to have?

And what does that impact look like? And if the impact is not correlating, we know there's this motivation now like, well, we've got to do something different. So they can notice what is actually happening in real time and name it. People don't give me feedback. When I ask for ideas, they don't give them to me.

When I actually try to have transparent conversations, people are quiet in the room. They always agree with me. And they're like, but I want people to bring some tension and to be able to give me certain feedback. OK, so you're not getting the behavior you want or the impact. What are you actually doing? How do you want it to be? How are you going to actually get that from people? What could be getting in the way? And then they might learn, wow, I found out in practically getting feedback or observing what I do is that

when you know Beth actually tries to raise her hand or say something I talk over her or I say my idea first and everyone kind of falls in. All I help them to pause to note what are they noticing how do they want it to be and now what do you need to do to get there and why is this even important to you and that's usually when it goes to not only desired impact but what are your values and who do you want to be right.

John Jantsch (12:38.69)

Yeah, and I do think sometimes people, they can identify is the symptoms, so to speak, and not necessarily the root cause, right?

Aiko (12:46.223)

Absolutely, and that's why that working backwards is so important because sometimes just like when you say people to ask people how do you want it to be? They may not even be able to tell you but they're able to say this is what I don't like and this is what I don't want and we can work from there.

John Jantsch (13:01.688)

So one of the true, I think, challenges, but also I think necessary skills for leaders that manage individuals is accountability. In other words, somebody knowing what's expected of them, but then you're holding them to that. But unfortunately, I see it turns a lot of times into like, did you meet your numbers? Like that's the old accountability measure. How do you get people to take it kind of beyond that or actually turn it into what it should be?

Aiko (13:31.0)

Yeah, we asked them, there's a lot of different techniques we use and oftentimes in the book I talk about this thing about looking forward, looking back, looking around, and I use the example of parenting. I think about how do I want it to be and so with my kids I think about what's the relationship I want to have with them 20 years from now, 30 years from now, and am I actually nurturing and exuding the behaviors that would lead to that.

John Jantsch (13:44.333)

Mm-hmm.

Aiko (13:56.836)

where I'm not having kids who are estranged from me, but they actually want me to be around them. And I've curved a lot of things I do in raising my voice to make sure that one, I'm a soft place to land. I'm a transparent, honest place to land. And I'm accountable for.

the ways that I am communicating with them or the impact I have with them. And I'm listening, et cetera. So with a business owner or something, I would want them to think about how do you want it to be X number of years from now? And it's not going to just be, oh, I want my numbers to be here, X, Y, and Z. They want to have some type of impact in their personal life, with their employees. What type of culture do you want? And all of those things go to the how and not just the what. Not just the numbers.

but also how do I want it to be in the organization? How do I even want to feel every morning when I know I'm going into X place? And that helps them to think about behaviors and not just this transactional component of the bottom line and the numbers.

John Jantsch (14:57.326)

You have likely had to navigate some rooms differently than me. You're an attorney, you're a senior leader, you are a woman, you're a woman of color. What did navigating in that way, the challenges that you uniquely faced, what did that bring you to today?

Aiko (15:17.251)

Well, a couple of things. One, and thank you for asking that question, John. It helps me to notice people in the room who might normally be treated as invisible or not seen because I've been on that receiving side going to argue a case as a first year attorney and people presuming that I'm the paralegal. And so I know what some of the assumptions can be and how we can jump to conclusions and it can be demoralizing for people.

John Jantsch (15:36.009)

Yeah.

Aiko (15:43.16)

And it also makes us lose a degree of connection. And that means when I go into a room, can often, I'm often thinking about who has the least amount of power in this room and how could I actually have an impact on people that I don't want to have. So I check my stories. I check, you know, what in the room is going to accommodate people. I realized that me just coming into the room and saying, Hey Beth, team, I want you all to be fully honest with me and transparent.

without me actually naming also that I understand what the risks could be and why that might be scary for you. But I want you to trust that because of X, Y, and Z, this is what I'll do instead. So I might tell somebody, I know that you may feel like you're the only person who X, but I need to hear your voice. And I tell them what that value proposition is and getting this different innovation or different rigor, how it serves all of us and that I will not be throwing you under the bus for X, and Z and recognizing that vulnerability.

John Jantsch (16:12.535)

Thanks

Aiko (16:42.353)

is different for everyone. That also means when you're on a team full of women. So one of the examples I give in the book is about a PTA meeting and there's only one male father who comes to the meeting and they're all women and there's like you know 60 women and they start with the PTA president actually saying well as always there are no dads here no men and it's the women leading the work and where does that leave him? He knows now his voice probably isn't gonna matter. I need to tiptoe.

John Jantsch (16:56.014)

You

Aiko (17:11.617)

and somebody else, another mother comes and apologizes and says, you know what, that shouldn't have been said. I want you to understand the context of why that was said, but it shouldn't have been. And you have as much to add here as everybody else. And I want to hear your voice. So that proactive closing the gap when you recognize who might have more to lose or a larger risk in the room and proactively addressing it.

John Jantsch (17:38.744)

So the term psychological safety seems to be one of those that is really in the boardrooms or in the leadership circles, certainly as part of culture. A lot of my listeners, five and six person organizations, how do they kind of practically teach that to their leaders? What is a version of that look like for them?

Aiko (18:02.755)

Yeah, think probably often modeling it. And when I talk about the terms of safe space, brave space, and psychologically safe space, I say that none of those actually own the idea of power and identity, et cetera. So I'm also a business owner.

I am aware that, wow, they feel like they're talking to the CEO. And this is somebody who who hires and fires. So this idea of one inviting not only critical thoughts or feedbacks that is critical of me in my decisions, but then when people give it to me, that's what's most important is how do I respond? So the idea of just the spirit of gratitude, recognizing, I know that may have felt risky for you to share that with me, but it was so important that I hear that because of X, Y, and Z.

So holding myself, one, as somebody who's going to invite it, and then holding myself accountable when someone says, hey, that didn't land, blah, blah, blah, blah, and saying, man, you know what? Even if I don't agree, I'll say, let me think about it, because I might be missing something. And I'm going to come back, and can we talk about it again?

So they know I've thought with it, I get a chance to sit with it and I can circle back and say, you know what, I got that wrong. And I'm so glad that you told me that. Or I might say, I'm really glad you told me that, but I don't know if I completely agree. So let's talk about this a little bit more. But I want them to feel heard, not to have punishment or judgment because they've said something that brings some tension or rigor. And to hold myself accountable first and foremost in the moment.

John Jantsch (19:40.366)

Yeah, I've actually heard many times that some of the healthiest teams are teams that actually can have healthy arguments or healthy conflict. It's not personal. It's just like, I know I have permission to say that's BS, right? So for a person listening to this, and we've been primarily focused on teams, but there's certainly client relationships that a lot of people have that this applies to. So for the person listening to this and they think, something's really off with that, can't really name it.

Where would you point that person first if they came to you and just with that sort of said something's off with my relationships. I can't really name it. What should I do first?

Aiko (20:19.575)

with my relationships with my clients.

John Jantsch (20:21.786)

clients with my team, maybe, you know, again, lot of it, I mean, parenting, you know, we've been talking about that. I mean, a lot of times it really all applies.

Aiko (20:31.001)

Yeah, so we dig in at that point and we ask, you know, what is it that you're noticing or you're feeling? And sometimes people say, I don't even know, I just feel like the vibe is off. And yeah, so I'll say, well, how do you want to feel? And then they can go back to whatever the moment is. I want to feel like, I don't know, lighter. I want to feel like they can talk to me and I can talk to them. Whatever it is, they can start envisioning that.

John Jantsch (20:40.642)

Right, right, right. That's what mean. I can't name it.

Mm-hmm.

Aiko (21:00.719)

And then I might say, well, what do you feel is getting in the way of that now? Now they're starting to diagnose what it could be. They may be like, I don't know. Well, actually, X, Y, and Z, there was this weird moment where blah, blah, blah. And then we start seeing behaviors and moments. And what were you doing? What was happening? If you wanted to get to X, this delta of I want to feel lighter, I want to feel, what does that mean you might need to do differently?

And sometimes it may not be in that scenario with that person. And we go all the way back and say, tell me about a relationship that you feel like you're in flow with and in sync and you love this relationship. And we go through where the components and characteristics of it. What do you all do? What do you not do? And then we can go back to this other one as a delta and say, OK, is any of that replicated here?

You know what, as a matter of fact, we don't. When I see John, it's high and by and there's nothing else. And then we realize, wow, having that interpersonal connection is important. Or John has never told me anything that was critical of me. It's like he always agrees. So now I realize I have to go and have a conversation and say, hey, I really want you to be able to tell me things that are difficult so I can be better. But those are ways you can diagnose it by contrast and compare.

John Jantsch (22:17.128)

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there anywhere you would invite people to connect with you and find out more about your work as well as pick up a copy of Anchored, Aligned, and Accountable?

Aiko (22:29.837)

Yeah, there's a few places on Instagram they can find us on at rare rare underscore coach or on LinkedIn under my name. I go with the and also our website rare coaching net.

John Jantsch (22:43.286)

Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Aiko (22:48.506)

Thank you for having me, John.

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John Jantsch (00:01.71)

So what if the press release isn't a relic of the pre-internet era, but actually one of the most underused tools a small business has right now, especially when AI can help write them, but there's a catch. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Mickie Kennedy. He's the founder of eReleases, a press release distribution service started back in 1998.

After watching small businesses get turned away from PR agencies, it charged a minimum of $20,000. He's since distributed over 150 press releases, more than 30,000 customers. And today we're going to talk about how to train AI to write press releases that journalists actually read and use. So Mickey, welcome to the show.

Mickie Kennedy (00:49.141)

Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (00:50.872)

So I've been in this business over 30 years. And so certainly the press release and PR and media relations were a big component of marketing. Seems like when the web came along, they sort of lost a little bit of their use and usability. And I wonder how you've been in this game a long time as well. E-Release really came around.

kind of when the web was just starting. how have you seen the practice of PR in general and certainly the PR or the press release tool changed dramatically over the last couple of decades?

Mickie Kennedy (01:30.241)

So I think the biggest change I've seen is the proliferation of noise in the PR space. There is a lot of, I guess you'd call them syndication feeds where for $49 or $119 your press release gets replicated on a bunch of websites, but it's usually like a sub domain or a folder on the website. And if you go to the website and you do a search for your company, it won't show up.

John Jantsch (01:36.066)

Yeah, sure.

Mickie Kennedy (02:00.481)

So, you know, humans aren't actually seeing this and it's more of just a, I don't know, an ego lift. And it's gotten to the point that, you know, people don't recognize the opportunity of what a proper newswire is. In the US, it's largely a duopoly between Businesswire owned by Berkshire Hathaway and PR Newswire. And PR Newswire is the oldest and largest. And they also charge, they both charge

quite a bit being a duopoly, around $1,800 for a 600 WordPress release to go out nationally. That being said, all the releases that go out through e-releases go out nationally and it's probably about 25 % the cost of that. The caveat is you have to be a small business or entrepreneur. Basically the type of customer that PR Newswire sells team has no interest in pursuing. And that's sort of what I act as a co-op for small businesses and entrepreneurs. And we move about 30,

Let's see, right now we're moving about 10,000 press releases a year. Altogether, we've worked with over 30, I think right now around 32, 33,000 clients that we've helped. And so we're moving a lot of volume and as a result, we're really helping people. But you know, there are people who have used the other services, then they'll do a press release with us and they'll actually say, we had less impact with you. And I'm like, well, I see you got no earned media.

and you got no earned media with them. They're like, no, we got picked up by 200 links. And I'm like, where? And they're just the syndication links. And I'm like, nobody wrote an article about you. These are all the press release replicated on a bunch of syndication websites. And they, you know, it's just hard to, I find education has become the thing now where we try to get people to understand the opportunity.

John Jantsch (03:51.736)

Well, let's talk about that because in the old days, certainly the press release was a vehicle to get media coverage, even if you were just trying to get it in your town. Then when the web came along, it actually became as much or more of an SEO play than a PR play, right? Yeah, because unfortunately in the early days, those links buried 10 rows deep were getting picked up by the search engines.

Mickie Kennedy (04:07.861)

Yeah, people trying to game that.

John Jantsch (04:18.19)

Even though no people really saw them, they were getting indexed. And so they did actually have some value in that regard. But certainly the search engines now are onto the game and those days are certainly over. So talk a little bit about this idea of earned media versus owned media, because I think we're actually back in a window of time when earned media is probably going to become more important than it maybe ever was or certainly

Mickie Kennedy (04:21.909)

But right now.

John Jantsch (04:46.978)

more so than it's been in the last couple of decades.

Mickie Kennedy (04:49.685)

Right. I think with AI, people are looking for stuff and AI is leaning on credible sources. And believe me, when I tell you it's not this subdomain on a website that no one knows, it's, if you're in the waste management space and you've been picked up in Waste News, which is the industry standard publication, and they've written about you doing something exciting.

John Jantsch (05:03.459)

Right.

Mickie Kennedy (05:17.537)

the AI as well as the search engines are going to know that that's a very relevant publication. And as a result, you're going to stand out. you know, that let's just take that one as an example. I mentioned it because I had a client who did a press release about them where they build facilities for municipalities. And it's everything nuts and bolts from waste as well as recycling. And, you know, a city orders it.

And there's nothing else. They handle everything. They work with the contractors and they build out a complete facility. very, you know, there's nobody really doing that. And so, they sent that press release out. They got one article and waste news, magazine. It's like the perfect magazine, but it was just one article. They were contacted by, a city in Australia and, within six months they were under contract to build two facilities in Australia.

John Jantsch (06:06.136)

Mm-hmm.

Mickie Kennedy (06:15.297)

And it was I think over 30 or 40 million dollars from one article and so And you know, they'll continue to get leads and recognition for that and that's what happens with our media I tell you you know you appearing on a website that no one's looking at nothing is ever going to happen But when a journalist writes an article about you it's like an implied endorsement You know, it's someone has transformed the press release into a written article

John Jantsch (06:18.83)

Sure.

Mickie Kennedy (06:42.977)

You know, during the pandemic, we helped an initiative called the dining bond initiative to help restaurants that were closed during the pandemic. It was sort of like a volunteer effort. And if they you you nominated a favorite local restaurant, if they were able to contact them, you could give money that went directly to them back by dining bonds for like a gift certificate scenario. And it raised over $10 million in revenue, it got picked up in over 100 places. It got

You name it Wall Street Journal picked it up New York Times lots of food publications and I saw over 80 daily newspapers who picked it up and so it did extremely well and again that would never happen on these syndication sites, know, these were all individual articles that people wrote about and I think that you know what people are missing is You know, what's what's the magic sauce and its strategy, you know in this case it was a lot of unknown

John Jantsch (07:21.4)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:27.566)

100 %

Mickie Kennedy (07:40.279)

You know, we were sent home two weeks to flatten the curve and there was an uncertainty. And here was something that was potentially positive news, but it was also actionable. You know, we have, we are powerless, but we could give $50 to the favorite restaurant we go to for our anniversary every year and make sure we're helping them in some small way. And I think that that's

John Jantsch (07:59.896)

Well, that, I mean, I think that brings up a really good point because a lot of times when people think about promoting something, there is like, here's my new product, you know, press release. and you know, that's not very interesting, it's interesting to that person, but maybe nobody else. So how do you find those? mean, you know, the pandemic was kind of an interesting opportunity, but in, in, in the real world, every day of small business, how do you find that thing that, that, that nobody's covering or that

Mickie Kennedy (08:11.329)

No.

John Jantsch (08:27.33)

that's really unique inside your industry instead of just self-promotion.

Mickie Kennedy (08:31.798)

you have to, you know, sort of put your thinking cap on. You have to play the contrarian. You have to look at different angles. Do you have to think and talk to people? Like if we were at a trade show or conference, what are the things you'd want to ask people right now? Have you noticed that this is happening with your company or is it just mine? Those are the things that are ripe for bringing out because often these are industry blind spots that the industry is not reporting on yet.

but you've noticed this trend and now you're looking for verification from someone else. And if you can get that verification, they're like, yeah, I'm seeing that too. You can break that. And that puts you in control for getting that news out there. And I've had that work really well, especially for clients that traditionally aren't very newsworthy. There was a local carpet company in New Jersey and talking to them during a brainstorm, we asked who their biggest enemy was and they says the big box home improvement stores.

And not only are they our biggest enemy, they give consumers a really poor product and a poor experience. And this is why. And so we did a press release about that. And they got picked up in almost every floor trade publication. No one had discussed it ever before. And yet it was something that really excited everybody. And we continued to milk that cow for a few more weeks, talking about different ways of which this company

know, targets and markets against the big box of improvement stores and brings home the value of why having seasoned people install your carpet rather than Home Depot going down a list of saying, here's the list of people who have a certification for home improvement license in our state. And that's the only qualification that Home Depot and Lowe's uses. They,

John Jantsch (10:13.944)

That's a pretty good, like if people are looking for a hook, like find an enemy, right, in the industry, like find a bad guy to kind of rail against. That's a pretty proven practice, isn't it?

Mickie Kennedy (10:27.53)

And also, think putting the spotlight on a customer, you talk about a new product or service, you get greedy, and you want to put the spotlight on you. But often you're not the most interesting story. But if you had someone who beta tested your product or software, and they had an amazing outcome, sometimes putting the spotlight on them and saying, we have this new product or service, here's a company that used it three years in, they lost money every year, looks like they're going to be one of the casualties of these companies that

John Jantsch (10:31.276)

Yeah, yeah,

John Jantsch (10:39.534)

Right.

Mickie Kennedy (10:57.164)

fail in the first five years of business. And by using our software solution to write better invoices that are more profitable, they're now projected to have their first profit ever. And then you have a quote by them. And it's like that shows the stakes. And it makes it so much more intriguing and interesting for an audience. And a journalist is at the end of the day doesn't care about

John Jantsch (11:04.12)

Mm-hmm.

Mickie Kennedy (11:18.518)

whether this is going to make a strong article for you, but is it going to make an intriguing and interesting article that their audience is going to want to listen to or read? And that's the biggest metric. Sometimes I say, you have to take what you want, and that's the pill. And sometimes you've got to put it in cheese to get the journalist to swallow it. And what is that magic thing that you're going to do? And sometimes putting the spotlight on others, it's really just creating a compelling story arc. Because naturally,

John Jantsch (11:25.41)

Right. Right. Right.

Mickie Kennedy (11:47.863)

Journalists like to write in a story arc. It's something that we learn from children onward and having a product or service with a list of features doesn't yield much of a story. So what are the things that you can do to make the stakes higher and to put more of that story arc in there?

John Jantsch (12:05.102)

So another sort of casualty of PR practice was the fact that we could hit a button and send out 20 million. I get pitches every single day. like, who on the planet thought this was relevant to my audience? And so how do you kind of balance that? I mean, in a perfect world, I wrote this press release for you, journalist, in this publication in this city. I mean, how do you balance that?

with the fact that you're probably gonna need to send a few out to get a hit.

Mickie Kennedy (12:36.278)

Yeah. So I think that it's one of the cases where going over a newswire now is more important than ever. And it sucks that it's in a duopoly environment because it's expensive. But, you know, that being said, the newswire is very clean. And so if you go into your log in on PR newswire, you have an industry feed that you've signed up for, and you can actually tailor it to exclude, you know, press releases with certain keywords, make sure that you capture

John Jantsch (13:02.53)

Mm-hmm.

Mickie Kennedy (13:05.89)

and pin certain press releases that mentioned certain keywords that are really important to you. And so it's the opposite of their inbox. know, media databases have become prolific over the last 20 years. And, you know, if you're a golf club company who spent $10,000 for a yearly license, and you sent to 2400, you know, people who cover golf, and they all passed, you now start talking yourself into

Well, know, bankers and financial people like to play golf. So let's send it to financial analysts and reporters. And it's like, they'll never cover golf clubs. But you know, that's happening in every industry. People are talking themselves because it costs nothing to just hit a few keys and blast to everybody. And so I find that with everybody, but perhaps local media, email has become a really difficult way to reach journalists. And I think that the newswire

John Jantsch (13:46.35)

Yep, right.

Mickie Kennedy (14:00.382)

is a better way to reach them. You just have to make sure that, you know, when you're spending money to go over a newswire, even if it's a reduced price with us, that you're really playing with something that's strategic and you're not doing a press release that's like, hey, we hired Judy as the new HR associate or something like that. It's a meaningful press release. And so I tell people to really, you know, put a little bit of effort into the strategy behind the press release.

John Jantsch (14:19.416)

Right.

Mickie Kennedy (14:28.515)

you know, look for ways in which you can make a compelling story and help develop a story arc because almost anything that people do you can sort of play with it and elevate it and try to create nuances that brings out more of a story element.

John Jantsch (14:47.534)

So we mentioned AI and certainly, you know, if hitting the button to send has gotten easier, certainly writing the press release has gotten easier. In theory, you can do one prompt and tell it what your product is and what your company name is and voila, it'll put it in a press release format even for you. How do you actually write, how do you actually use the AI tools to write better press releases, ones that are going to get picked up? mean, what does that look like in practice?

Mickie Kennedy (15:15.267)

So I never let AI decide what to write on. I tell people the metric is about 97 % of press releases that even go through the newswire where people paid $1,700 plus to go out naturally. They do not generate earned media. So what I tell people to do is focus on the 3 % of press releases that do get picked up because there's patterns in there. The story arc is an important one.

John Jantsch (15:40.706)

Mm-hmm.

Mickie Kennedy (15:43.172)

you know, building in an industry survey or study, that's something anyone can do. Nobody owns an industry, you can do the legwork, get a survey in your industry, partner with a smaller independent trade association, not the big one, they'll often because it's a smaller independent one, they don't get a lot of love from the media. So they see it as a win win themselves. And I'd say more than two thirds of the time, they will cooperate with you to send that out to their members. And

you know, focus not on all the questions, but what was the most, uh, the biggest surprise or aha of that, uh, survey that you did and then focus on that, uh, as the press release. then ask AI, Hey, I've got this idea for a press release. Here's me. Here's my company. Do not write the press release. Give me the structure of what you feel would be the perfect press release on this subject. It'll probably write the press release anyways. And I go, okay.

I see you wrote the press release. Now give me just the structure. And then finally it gives you the structure and say, okay, give me eight headline options for this press release. And then if I find one that I really like, I'll get it. Otherwise we'll refine one. It's like number three comes closest, but I want to make sure that this is in there. And then I say, okay, now give me three opening paragraph options using this target headline. And it, this way takes longer. It might take.

John Jantsch (17:07.822)

Thanks

Mickie Kennedy (17:08.355)

I've the most has ever taken me to do a whole press release is 12 minutes. So you don't get it in 30 seconds. But if you take it top down, paragraph by paragraph, and then focus like, hey, I'm the second paragraph, I want to make sure I have a quote. And I want to say something very powerfully, you know, make sure active verbs are used, and that really stands out. And, you know, if you're comfortable,

John Jantsch (17:11.923)

Yeah.

Mickie Kennedy (17:33.88)

being a contrarian, you could even say you can make it a contrarian quote or something like that. like, let's say you did a survey of graphic designers and 80 % believe that they're gonna be replaced by AI in five years. could say, you could disagree with that and say, while this survey shows a lot of people are scared of the industry, I think this is a bit alarmist. And I do believe that those who don't know how to start incorporating AI into their graphic tools toolbox,

they're going to be at a huge disadvantage in the coming years. And you know, that you're not necessarily agreeing with what the survey said, but it makes you seem very thoughtful and rational. And, you know, those types of things. And then, you know, just going top down until you get what you will, you know, get it finished. AI is very good at writing the press release, but the ideas behind it, it's not very good at it'll, it'll make a press release, like you see out there. And you're like, this is as good as that one. Well, that one probably didn't.

John Jantsch (18:23.661)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:28.782)

Well, it's because it's read all the bad press releases, right? That's right. You know, one of the things I think people really under utilize is the deep research aspect of it. I mean, you can get to the point where you could go to just about any industry and ask it something like, what are generally accepted practices in this industry?

Mickie Kennedy (18:31.734)

Right. And it's like, yeah, you're right. It did as well as another bad press release that didn't get any media pickups. So,

John Jantsch (18:53.614)

that nobody is questioning. mean, questions like that can all of a sudden really spark some things that will be polarizing, controversial potentially. And that's really where the gems are, isn't it?

Mickie Kennedy (19:09.56)

Yeah, absolutely. mean, the research capability of AI is so good. And a lot of people also don't brainstorm with it. It's like, hey, what are some contrarian ideas that we could use for my industry and just brainstorm them. And maybe it gives you five or six, and you're sitting there saying, well, I would never feel comfortable saying that in my industry, but maybe number four.

is one that I could get behind and I wouldn't alienate my customer base. But being a contrarian is a really great way to stand out with the media because so many times everybody agrees in one direction. And as a result, stories get written that are one sided. And believe it or not, outside of politics, journalists like to be fair and balanced. So if you're the only one raising your hand and saying, hey, electric cars are bad for the environment, they're bad for right now,

you know, taking a lithium battery fire and getting it under control often involves 12 fire trucks and 50,000 gallons of water and and it burns to X amount of degree. Plus, we don't know what we're gonna do with these batteries at the end of the life. Maybe we could hit pause for a few years until we figure some things out before we embrace electric cars so strongly. And that way you stand the likelihood of every time they discuss this subject, you get plugged in as that rational contrarian viewpoint.

And that's a much easier place because less people are competing for that spot.

John Jantsch (20:40.75)

Well, Mickey, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to learn more about e-releases and connect with you?

Mickie Kennedy (20:49.902)

So our website's ereleases.com. I have a free masterclass where I teach people in less than an hour these strategic types of press releases that work, the 3 % of press releases that are actually working. And again, it's completely free and it's a great place for anybody to start. And that's at ereleases.com slash plan, P-L-A-N. And again, it's completely free and you can feel free to call or email my office or chat with us.

You know, we work with people all the time on their first real PR campaign and we're great at holding hands and sort of teaching people the way to do this. And I always tell people, this is something that anybody can do. You don't need to hire a PR firm. This is something that you can do yourself. It just takes a little bit of thought and effort, but it's a way in which I think a small business can sort of implement it and maybe do it quarterly or every other month, you know, find a cadence that works for you.

John Jantsch (21:45.516)

Well again, I appreciate you taking a few moments and maybe we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Mickie Kennedy (21:50.735)

Sounds good. Thank you.

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