Just a few years ago, Ben Shapiro was the defining voice of right-wing media. His podcast sat near the top of the charts. Posts from the Daily Wire, his media company, routinely dominated the competition on Facebook. His team was even coming for Hollywood, putting out “anti-woke” comedies and an epic fantasy series that cost millions per episode.

All that feels like a distant memory now. Shapiro’s social media traffic has collapsed, as the Washington Post’s Drew Harwell recently reported; the Daily Wire has gone through multiple rounds of layoffs since 2025. The epic fantasy series flopped. Shapiro’s struggle to stay relevant is clear on his YouTube page, where you can find painfully forced videos of the pundit reacting to trending culture.

So what happened? Ryan Broderick, a longtime internet culture reporter who publishes the Garbage Day newsletter, has a succinct explanation: “The age-old problem with working at the racism factory! They eventually make a new racism that includes you,” he wrote in May.

To learn more about the Daily Wire’s decline, Today, Explained co-host Noel King spoke with Broderick about how Charlie Kirk’s murder precipitated a MAGA vibe shift that has left Shapiro out in the cold, the new media figures rising to replace him, and whether we will miss Shapiro once he’s gone. (We very likely will.)

 Below is an excerpt of their conversation, edited for length and clarity. There’s much more in the full podcast, so listen to Today, Explained wherever you get podcasts, including Apple Podcasts, Pandora, and Spotify.

Explain your “racism factory” line, please. 

It was a pithy way to describe what I think is happening to Ben Shapiro right now, which is that he’s found himself on the wrong side of a far-right vibe shift that’s happening. 

The question of “Should American conservatives support Israel?” I think, has quickly become the deciding factor in canonizing the new wave of MAGA, or even post-MAGA conservatism in America. There’s a lot of creators on one side who say we should not be involved with Israel. They say that largely for antisemitic purposes, but also because they’re xenophobic and isolationists, but they know that this is a red line that they can go across. 

Ben Shapiro cannot follow them there because he is an Orthodox Jew who supports Israel and is a fairly standard conservative, all things considered. And so this is among the many other problems that Shapiro is having right now in trying to hold his digital media empire together.

Alright, so Ben Shapiro’s on one side. As you said, he is unlikely to ever turn his back on Israel. On the other side are people who are going hard at Israel and have been since approximately, I don’t know, October 8, 2023. Who are they? Who are the players here?

The biggest one is Nick Fuentes. He is the de facto leader of this far-right splinter cell movement, the “Groypers.” He’s got a live stream that he’s on every single day, and he’s just the most vile kind of far-right personality you could imagine. But you also have more and more creators, I think, sensing this vibe shift and moving towards him. 

Candace Owens was going so far as to even claim that Charlie Kirk was killed by Mossad. You also have Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly — a lot of these people I would sort of put in the camp of pretty run-of-the-mill conservative commentators who understand that Trump is not popular, and so they’re trying to feel out new territory there. And then you also have “manosphere” guys like Tim Dillon who have even started to kind of go against Israel. 

It is this thing that is happening, and social media, I think, always prioritizes the newest, most taboo idea. And so this would be a new taboo that has been discovered by far-right commentators.

So in that camp of people, you have critics of Israel that run the gamut from Candace Owens, who seems kind of nutty, to Megyn Kelly, who often seems pretty straight. What do they all have in common? Is it just their criticism of Israel?

No, my read on this is that it all stems from Charlie Kirk, actually.

The MAGA movement is not one movement. It is not one ideology. The 2024 winning coalition was this weird mismatch of far-right live streamers, manosphere podcasters, neoconservatives and the TPUSA/Charlie Kirk kind of middle-of-the-road MAGA people. I think Charlie Kirk was very instrumental in holding a lot of this together, if only because it seemed like — to them at least — he was possibly a replacement for Trump. 

I’ve read into it as the MAGA movement was trying to home-grow their own version of Trump. Charlie Kirk may have been that figure. He dies, and the whole thing starts to fall apart. And I have to give, unfortunately, some credit to Nick Fuentes here, who has always hated Charlie Kirk.

So Charlie Kirk is killed, and then these alliances form and they fracture and they reform and they refracture. What events of the last, say, eight months do we place in the post-Charlie Kirk’s assassination moment?

It’s a lot of reading the tea leaves of online discourse, I would say. But you know when the movement is working and when they’re all falling in lockstep with one another.

Sydney Sweeney’s jeans would be a good example of [that], or Cracker Barrel. They’ve been able to get this talking point to surface out of their DMs and into the general consciousness. And if you look back at the months immediately after Charlie Kirk’s murder, that hasn’t really been happening the same way. They’re not really working together. They’re fighting with each other a lot, and they’re also telling on each other. 

These people are very messy. Even as we speak, Ashley St. Clair is on TikTok sharing secrets from inside the MAGA movement and going on Hasan Piker’s stream. All these guys are unfollowing each other and fighting with each other. And it’s a lot of right wingers who are super dependent on internet attention and monetizing internet attention, and they’re really, really nervous about the internet landscape the same way all digital media publishers are. I think that’s having a negative impact on the stuffiest of the digital media-era people. And Ben Shapiro is the stuffiest.

There is something else that I’ve been thinking about a lot, which is: Ben Shapiro, when he started out, he was so young, and it was like this young man that appealed to people who were much older because he was super well-spoken and he was pugnacious. 

Now he just sort of seems old. He seems like he doesn’t really know what he should be doing on TikTok. He seems like he doesn’t really know who in the culture is relevant anymore. You could make the same argument about Tucker Carlson, even though he’s surviving, but he openly seems scared of Nick Fuentes. 

Do you think that the guys that we were used to are now the old guys and they know it, and the young guys that are coming after them are worse?

I would say that Ben Shapiro from the very beginning was much better at talking to old people than talking to young people. And it seems like what he was doing was creating a digital media company that looked hip and cool to old people, who would then give him money and he would spend that money on advertising and sort of dominate Facebook and create this flywheel that allowed him to grow pretty quickly. 

A lot of the weird preoccupations the Daily Wire has had with dominating Hollywood, for instance, feel very old to me. It feels like an 80-year-old conservative’s fever dream of what the internet could be. Just very strange stuff. 

I think it’s only gotten stranger in the last year or two, because it also feels like the Trump movement has kind of moved beyond the need for someone like Ben Shapiro. In the era of DOGE and Project 2025 and ICE occupations [and] JD Vance/AI stuff, none of it feels like Ben Shapiro is really in the mix anymore.

Do you think we’re going to look back in a few years and miss Ben Shapiro for his sort of sobriety?

Yes. I think that when digital publishers on the right, in the early 2010s, began to really lean into the internet, they inadvertently connected American conservatism and by extension global conservatism with the sea changes and tides of internet discourse. And that’s always going to go towards the thing that feels the most dangerous and the most taboo, because that’s what’s most exciting on social media. 

If you have every major conservative figure in America making money directly from the internet, there’s no real incentive for them to become more moderate. They’re going to be hitting themselves in the face with hammers and smoking meth and attacking people on the street and going full white nationalist, race-science Substack nonsense. We’re already seeing this. The days of Prager University or the Daily Wire trying to do a sensible conservative’s reaction to Cardi B’s “WAP” or whatever are just not going to come back.

“Longevity” — a buzzy catchall for the quest for a longer life — is having a moment. Tech titans like Peter Thiel, Mark Zuckerberg, and Jeff Bezos are spending billions to fund research into how to slow aging. Celebrities like Gwyneth Paltrow and Hailey Bieber are touting peptide use. And the world’s most powerful authoritarian leaders are jumping on the bandwagon too.

Last fall, a hot mic caught Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping gabbing — through a translator — about how organ replacement may soon allow people to live to 150 or older. The conversation caught the attention of Bojan Pancevski, the Wall Street Journal’s chief European political correspondent. He had been curious about Putin’s obsession with health for a long time.

According to Pancevski, Putin is “quite serious about his issues. So I decided to look up and see what he was talking about. It turned out he was actually referencing a state program.”

Pancesvki’s reporting journey led to a viral article on Putin’s $26 billion longevity program. Pancesvki talked to Today, Explained co-host Noel King about how Putin’s scientists plan to replace organs (pity the pigs), the role Putin’s daughter plays, and the long history of Russian leaders pursuing immortality.

Below is an excerpt of their conversation, edited for length and clarity. There’s much more in the full podcast, so listen to Today, Explained wherever you get podcasts, including Apple Podcasts, Pandora, and Spotify.

The $26 billion is money being spent on this longevity project. And one of the things it’s being spent on, as you said, is organ replacement. Where do the poor pigs fit in here? Tell me what happened.

The mini pigs. Yeah, that’s a bit creepy. Poor little mini pigs. 

Essentially, there are two ways they’re looking to achieve organ replacement for humans. One of them is 3D printing. I think everyone by now has heard of 3D printing — they can print a glass, a glove, even a whole house. But there are also 3D printers that print biological tissue, and the Russians are hoping to print organs quite soon. The idea is you print an organ in the lab and implant it into a human being — say, lungs, a liver, or even a heart. That’s the aspiration.

The second thing is the mini pigs. They are genetically close to humans in some ways, and they are genetically modified as well. They’re growing organs in these mini pigs and then implanting them into human beings. I don’t think people who get organs like that live very long — for various reasons, the body rejects the organs. But it is a technique that is actually quite promising. It’s not a fantasy. Other countries, notably China, are doing this as well.

You also wrote that Vladimir Putin loves a “reverse sauna.” What is this?

He loves a cryo chamber. A cryo chamber is basically a room like a sauna, but the exact opposite, because it’s extremely cold. I think it’s minus 170 [degrees] Fahrenheit, if I’m not mistaken.

What he does is, he strips naked, walks in, and stands there for a few minutes in that horrible cold. I discussed this with the former chancellor of Austria, Sebastian Kurz, who visited Putin in the Kremlin. During the conversation, Putin just brought this up and talked about it for quite a while.

Kurz, who at the time was just over 30 years old — I think he was the world’s youngest leader — was listening to this, and he told me later, “That was weird.” Kurz said, “We were here to talk politics, and then suddenly he started talking about health and longevity and how you should use this reverse sauna.” 

They’re looking into how to slow down or even stop the actual aging process within human cells. They’re looking into peptides. Again, something very familiar — I think RFK Jr. is very big on peptides.

Putin had one longevity guru who was a geriatric doctor. He was a very esteemed professor of medicine, and he had been looking into peptides for many decades, even back in the Soviet days. He was a peptide pioneer. When asked in an interview, “What is your research? How does it relate to Putin?”, he said the idea is to prolong the life of a leader who is so important that if he were to die, the country would be thrown into a crisis. That’s how he saw his mission. He also said that people are programmed to live to 120 years old, and he quoted the Old Testament of the Bible as his source for that.

It was interesting for a well-credentialed scientist and professor to quote the Bible as a source of medical knowledge. But the thing is…he then died when he turned 77. He didn’t quite reach the age he prescribed for himself — the age I guess he was hoping Putin might reach.

After the early demise of that guy, Putin had to find another longevity guru. Now he’s got a guy who’s much more focused on the mini pigs and the 3D printing.

I was genuinely impressed to learn that Vladimir Putin’s daughter is involved in this. She is a legit scientist, yeah?

She’s a doctor. Her name is Maria Vorontsova. She is an endocrinologist; she looks into glands and the endocrine system. And she has received quite a substantial grant from one of these state programs to work on longevity research.

Putin has recruited his own family members and scientists he really trusts to work on this issue. It is very close to home for him, which shows it’s something deeply important to him as a leader. 

Russia is pretty much a military dictatorship nowadays. He can commandeer the resources of the state the way he likes. Obviously, he’s decided this is a subject that merits a lot of research, a lot of funding, and input from people he truly trusts, including his own daughter.

And to your point, Vladimir Putin is not the first Russian autocrat to try to live forever, is he?

Not at all. I was surprised to learn while researching my article that Russia is kind of the cradle of modern longevity science. Going back to Joseph Stalin, the dictator of the Soviet Union — he had a longevity guru himself. That guru organized what seems to be the world’s first longevity conference back in the late ’20s or early ’30s. It happened in Kyiv, in today’s Ukraine. That guy also claimed in his medical work that people will be living up to 140 years of age. And that guy, too, unfortunately, died at age 65.

It seems to be a trend among these longevity gurus that they don’t really reach the biblical age. I didn’t include this in my article because I couldn’t find hard evidence for it, but there are anecdotal stories about Stalin being very angry about his longevity guru dying young. He didn’t like the sound of that.

Bad look. Alright, so Vladimir Putin is spending a lot of Russian money on this project. It may work, it likely will not work, but let’s say it does work. Let’s say there are some real scientific advances that come out of this project. Is Putin going to share?

If Vladimir Putin were to find the source of eternal youth, obviously he’d be hogging it for himself first, and for his family or the elite. But eventually, these things trickle down. It’s worth remembering that Putin is extremely concerned about the demographics of his country, and the demographics were awful to begin with. Life expectancy for a Russian male is 68 years. That’s very, very low for an industrial nation. It’s terrible.

On top of that, there is this extremely lethal war he started and is waging against Ukraine, and it’s not going well for him or for anyone. There’s a bit of a macabre irony here: He’s trying to prolong the lifespan of a nation that he has dragged into this incredibly damaging and deadly war. He’s trying to somehow undo something that he’s done himself.